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#21 .josh

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 03:26 PM

@jonsmith:  

 

 

Customers can be annoying, but you can't turn them away.

 

As others have already pointed out, we aren't a business, we don't ask for your money, and we don't get paid.  But even if we did, (Hypothetically speaking) customers pay for a product or service, and unless the description on the menu board specifically says "...with a side of 'please oh please tell me all about how I'm a failure of a human being for not getting your order right, or making you wait behind other people, or <insert any self-entitled excuse here>",  I absolutely have no qualms about calling a bad customer out for what (s)he is and showing them the door.  

 

"Then you won't have a business" you say?  Sure, maybe if I was in the business of taking crap from customers I might agree, but seeing as how most customers aren't douchebags and seeing as how most customers cheer you on as you're kicking the asshat out the door for thinking he's so damn special or that it's okay to be a douchebag,.I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with your assessment.  

 

 

NOTE: No, I'm not calling you a douchebag or anything.  You just mentioned outdated things, so I just wanted to point out that the notion that the "customer is always right" is on that list, as well.



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#22 crmamx

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 05:25 PM

One of the actual admins can correct me if I'm wrong but:
PHP Freaks isn't a business. The goal is not to make money, and we don't have customers. This isn't a "company" that needs to be represented by PR monkeys.

The purpose of PHP Freaks is to spread knowledge - and it's free to the users. The purpose of this forum is to help people solve their problems, and more importantly help them learn how to solve them.

We donate our time. No one here makes a cent. You are not a customer. You are asking us to do something for you for free. Most of the people who come here and do that, do it without thinking about what those of us who do help have to do. There are plenty of help vampires, people who want it done for them, people who aren't willing to try on their own. They are more disrespectful to us than Christian asking why you'd complain about a free service is.

 

 

I disagree that this site is not a business. I would content that all sites are a business. Every business has an objective or purpose which I believe she correctly stated for this site. The fact that it is free is immaterial. A church is a business but it is free. All business have an organizational structure, a service or product, bylaws, rules and regulations and customers. A church has all those as does this site.

The managers here are the owner, Phailip, Kevin and others. I am a customer. cssfeakie was a customer when I first met him on here. But he had the knowledge and spent the time helping others to where he was "promoted" to a manager's position. I would like to have a manager's badge. I have the time to contribute but I will never have the knowledge required.

The point I am getting to is business is all about customer service. It is about selling the customer on your product or service. That is the only way a business will grow.

If I was the manager of a business that had taken a down turn the first thing I would do is review everything I could find when business was good. Then I would try to compare those findings to today to see if I could pinpoint a cause/effect relationship.
 


Edited by crmamx, 01 March 2013 - 05:28 PM.

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#23 .josh

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 05:58 PM

Umm, no.
 
Here is the legal definition of a business:
 

Any activity or enterprise entered into for profit

 
We are not considered a business because we are not structured to make a profit.  The fact that we do not profit from it ("free" as you say) is very relevant, because that is the core difference between a business and other organizations.  The same thing with (most) churches.  Churches accept donations, but they do not exist to make a profit.  You are right that there are lot of similarities between a site like this or a church vs. a business, but the key defining factor is whether or not the organization's "model" is to make a profit. If an entity does not profit from its services or products, it is not considered a business, but an organization or other form of entity.  And I'm not talking about a company looking to make money but just failing at it.  There is a difference between a non-profit organization vs. someone who is trying to make money and simply failing at it. 

 

Also, the point of a business is absolutely not about the customer. The point of a business is to make money and to profit.  Why do you think so many businesses try to make products as cheap as possible and mark them up as much as possible?  Why do you think businesses go out of their way to confuse customers and bind them to contracts and stuff?  Are you really honestly that naive to think that businesses pretend you are special because you really are?  No! Flattery is business 101.  Tell someone how awesome they are and they let their guard down and trust you and don't notice that you're lubing them up to stick your fat...you get the picture.   The point is, businesses don't give 2 shits about you the "customer", they give 2 shits about the money in your pocket, and they will do absolutely everything they can to get it.  Treating you like you're special and "right" is just one tactic that effectively works on people.  



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Please, take the time and do some research and find out how much it would have cost you to get your help from a decent paid-for source. A "roll-of-the-dice" freelancer will charge you $5-$15/hr. A decent entry level freelancer will charge you around $15-30/hr. A professional will charge you anywhere from $50-$100/hr. An agency will charge anywhere from $100-$250/hr. Think about all this when soliciting for help here. Think about how much money you are making from the work you are asking for help on. No, we do not expect you to pay for the help given here, but donating a few bucks is a fraction of the cost of what you would have paid, shows your appreciation, helps motivate people to keep offering help without the pricetag, and helps make this a higher quality free-help community :)

#24 crmamx

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:47 PM

I don't know what a legal definition is but here is the more accepted definition of a business:

 

A business is an organization involved in the sale of goods, services, or both to consumers. Businesses are predominant
in capitalist economies, where most of them are privately owned and administered to earn profits to increase the
wealth of their owners. Businesses may also be not-for-profit or state-owned.

 

And this is what the universities teach. A business does not have to be for profit. Business 101 may not teach customer satisfaction,

but marketing 101 certainly does.

 

But I see no value in nit picking the definition of business. My original topic seemed to evolve to the fact that "business" was down

on the site and what could be done to improve it. And I certainly don't see where a posting about "douchebags" is related, constructive or

even appropriate language.


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#25 .josh

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 07:34 PM

I don't know what a legal definition is but here is the more accepted definition of a business:

 

The legal definition is the only one that matters, because that is the one the govt looks at when deciding whether or not they should get a cut of whatever it is you are doing.  

 

And this is what the universities teach. A business does not have to be for profit. Business 101 may not teach customer satisfaction,but marketing 101 certainly does.

 

No, the the point of marketing is to get you to hand your money over to the business. That whole "Satisfaction" thing is just a marketing trick, please refer to my previous statements about flattery.  The job of a marketer is to figure out the best way to make you part with your money.  Telling you that you're awesome and you deserve this awesome product works, so they do it.  And they make you sign a contract while you're still misty eyed over compliments and then they've snagged you.  And that's why customer service is so shitty: they've already got you in a contract, so they don't have to be nice anymore.  

 

But I see no value in nit picking the definition of business. 

 

Then why are you nitpicking?  

 

 

My original topic seemed to evolve to the fact that "business" was down on the site and what could be done to improve it.

 

Your topic evolved into someone calling us a failure under the assumption that we are a business.  Approximately 95% of it was just outright "your site/staff fails", 5% (subjectively) pointed at alleged problems and  0% of it has actually offered up any solution or advice for improvement. 

 

And I certainly don't see where a posting about "douchebags" is related, constructive or even appropriate language.

 

johnsmith drove his point home about us being a business in one his posts by ending it with the proverbial "customer is always right" statements.  I responded to that statement, by pointing out that customers aren't always right and no we don't have to pretend that they are.  I gave examples of how customers aren't always right.  My choice of word is artistic license; whether you find it "appropriate" or not is a matter of personal opinion, but it was nonetheless relevant.  If you read my post and all you got out of it was "oh nohs, bad words that make my ears bleed!" then you entirely missed the meaning behind it and the context it was in, and I invite you to go back and read them again.  If it helps, pretend I said "doodiebottom" instead.  



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Please, take the time and do some research and find out how much it would have cost you to get your help from a decent paid-for source. A "roll-of-the-dice" freelancer will charge you $5-$15/hr. A decent entry level freelancer will charge you around $15-30/hr. A professional will charge you anywhere from $50-$100/hr. An agency will charge anywhere from $100-$250/hr. Think about all this when soliciting for help here. Think about how much money you are making from the work you are asking for help on. No, we do not expect you to pay for the help given here, but donating a few bucks is a fraction of the cost of what you would have paid, shows your appreciation, helps motivate people to keep offering help without the pricetag, and helps make this a higher quality free-help community :)

#26 johnsmith153

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 07:47 PM

What the hell is this .josh fella on about?



#27 Philip

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:09 PM

I think this thread has officially gone its course. If anybody has questions still, feel free to PM me.






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