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#1 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 14 June 2006 - 06:11 PM

I am wondering, can anyone give me a brief description of something like joomla. If I use it, can I still program, or is it just something to allow my client to be able to update his site easier after I am done building it, I was looking over it and wondering. Thanks.

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#2 trq

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Posted 14 June 2006 - 06:16 PM

Why dont you read the [a href=\"http://www.joomla.org/content/view/12/26/\" target=\"_blank\"]What is Joomla[/a] section of there site?

#3 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 05:26 PM

I hate it. I thought I would use cms's but I never will I was thinking I could build a site do all the programming, and you somehow hooked that into joomla to allow it to automatically allow the clients I have to update there own stuff. But instead if's a package of a template to build a site with, I wanted to build the site myself that was why I was asking, I don't understand cms, I thought it was just a simple control panel, you can hook to the site, or program up to allow people to functionalize stuff on the site, but I find out instead it's another one of those stupid wysiwyg editors, that's what is so confusing.
how can a wysiwyg editor popular.

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#4 trq

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 05:55 PM

Um... A cms is a little bit more advanced than just a WYSIWYG editor. A cms might have a WYSIWYG editor built in, but they are usually allot more in depth than just that.

I have constantly been developing the same framework for the past three+ years. This enables me to quickly develope sites for clients without needing to start from scratch each time.

A ready made cms would just be an extension to this. A ready made application built on top of a reliable framework that covers most bases. However most clients have more specialized requirements.

#5 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 06:10 PM

see that confuses me, for instance, what about the xhtml/css coding, do I still do that when using a cms, or does a cms allow me to set things up, that's what is confusing me, for now I don't program anything major, but for leanring I have to actively create php programming and database work or I Don't leanr, later yes I can have something that does it, or use 3rd party scripts for stuff like classified systems, but for now, does the cms just allow me to still do all xhtml/css coding, and php/mysql programming, or does it basically do all of that for me, I think I might be confused on the purpose of cms, I thought i was the programmer developer builds the site from scratch like normal, the second thing was after it's build the client has an admin page linked on to there url, with this they can add/put stuff into there database move stuff around on there site, add pictures, and basic other things using the cms control panel, was I completely wrong about all of this?

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#6 AndyB

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 06:18 PM

Unsurprisingly, a CMS - content management system - is designed to manage content. A trivial part of managing content is the provision of relatively user-proof methods for editing content. The whole idea of anything that is driven by templates is that it can be readily customised/readily changed to present the content in different styles. A CMS makes management of a site simple enough for half-awake clients to use when they want to add, edit, delete, hide, rearrange the content.

The easiest way to understand what a CMS does is to actually install one and use it. Add some content, rearrange the menu structure(s), edit the page layout template(s), change the style template(s), etc. Don't knock it until you try it - for more than five minutes. On the other hand, don't expect to harness all the power of a pre-built CMS just by diddling around for a few minutes.

Unfortunately, many CMS packages have every bell and whistle imaginable which makes learning to use them far more difficult than it needs to be, not to mention having to upload 1000s of files. It might be worth looking at a simple CMS - CMSMadeSimple is as easy as they come.
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#7 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 06:25 PM

Because I was going to start from scratch until I get to the point where I start doing php classes. Then I was going to do something similar to what you said, I will(because I have the time) create a basic ad system, or use one that's free ware, after I learn that will be what I use to do it faster, and just modify it more, but I still want the knowledge to do these things myself, i do programming not only because of the money, well I didn't now I do, ubt I like making money and i have fun doing every minute of it, if I use this cms, and all of a sudden, there is no more php programming, no more building sites and fighting with cross browser compatibility/accessibility/and standards compliancy, then I won't have fun doing anymore, or am I looking at the purpose of cms's wrong.
editeverything below here new
so essentially a cms is in fact that. It's something that has a template for the web designer to build the site with, I did install one, but when I saw it pop up with a pre-built template, taking away all css/xhtml coding, and programming I turned hte other way, I will test it again to see if I looked at it wrong. This is new territory for me, but joomla has been staring me in the head



SIDE QUESTION-
Is php post nuke dangerous, I have heard SO MUCH about it being insecure, fully of bugs, security hazard, and about a hundred other things, and I have heard this stuff all over the place.

this is what I didn't want, I found this.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]In the context of a Web site a CMS is a collection of tools designed to allow the creation, modification organisation and removal of information from a Web site. It is common for a CMS to require users to have no knowledge of HTML in order to create new Web pages.[/quote]
so it's basically like a steriods induced frontpage with clean code, That is what I wanted to avoid is there a cms out there that is just for the client(my clients) to keep there site updated on there own, but still allows me to do everything else:S

[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]Unfortunately, many CMS packages have every bell and whistle imaginable which makes learning to use them far more difficult than it needs to be, not to mention having to upload 1000s of files. It might be worth looking at a simple CMS - CMSMadeSimple is as easy as they come.\[/quote]
I will look into it and see if it's more my style than joomla

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#8 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 06:55 PM

[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]CMS Made Simple provides a fast and easy way to create a website and manage its contents. Use it to make a homepage for your family- OR your multinational corporation!![/quote]
That is what I Don't want. I don't understand this, I don't want to use a create-a-website-editor. I want to create websites, later when I get ready I will use shortcuts to lessen development time, I don't want that part but I do want.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]manage its contents.[/quote]
the keyword there being manage After the website is built. You see what I mean, that is where I am trying to go in this direction, is there anything out there that gives me that ability, maybe provides me with a huge control panel, where i can hook database stuff up to, to keep me from having to make an advanced form, with all the connections. I don't know, but now you see where I am coming from anyway.

See but I have also heard that people sometimes say they Always use a cms when they BUILD a website, that would mean that there is something about the cms systems I am not understanding, can someone explain it?

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#9 AndyB

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 08:46 PM

OK, you win.

'Design' your web site - page layout, colors, etc. etc. using xhtml and CSS and whatever else. Whatever you do, make sure you don't use anything except a pure editor - Notepad is good.

Put all of the content of each page into a separate record of a database table. Write the database abstraction routines to draw content out and display it when the appropriate page is visited.

Create a secure admin system to let your client edit the database.

Create a configurable menu so that the order of links can be changed, links can be turned on and off, etc. Write the code to drag that from a database for display. Write the code for your client to edit that any way he/she wants. Remember to allow your client to be able to add new pages, as well as delete them.

Create options for your client to add php snippets for almost anything you can imagine.

Create options for your client to upload images, resize them, etc. all using a 'people-friendly' administration system.

Create all of the necessary user documentation so your client can do all those things.

Guess what you've got? What everybody else calls a CMS :)

The fact that any decent CMS allows you complete freedom of design, layout, etc. appears to have escaped you. You CAN change the layout files. You CAN edit the CSS files. You CAN create your own add-ons.
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#10 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 08:58 PM

Ah so I could scrap what they already ahve and create from scratch, I will keep looking around, it's just everytime I see a joomla cms based site, it always has joomla all over it, and looks all the same, I thought they had preset templates, and that was it, I will look deeper into this and see what I can get.

Is php post nuke dangerous, I have heard SO MUCH about it being insecure, fully of bugs, security hazard, and about a hundred other things, and I have heard this stuff all over the place.

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#11 trq

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 10:12 PM

When any client asks me to build them a web application they are usually asking for a cms. Afterall, if they cant update it dynamically we may aswell just stick with html. Now, obviously starting a cms from scratch for every client is a waste of time and resources. Build up a library and use it.

I think your missing the whole point here. YOU could build your own cms and reuse it. Things like Joomla are just open source cms's built by communities of developers.

As for this...
[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]Is php post nuke dangerous[/quote]
I dont believe any more so than any other application. All code has its faults and vulnerabilities. There is no such thing as a perfect application.

#12 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 10:24 PM

Ah I appreciate the help, thanks alot I wills tart slowly getting something together over time, and reuse my own code until I have something that matches my code.

But then again I can rip code form joomla, and other free open source ones when I am ready
I COULD PUT THEM TOGETHER, HAHAHA
I could start putting parts of different open source cms's to make the god of all cms's

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#13 AndyB

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 10:39 PM

[!--quoteo(post=384394:date=Jun 15 2006, 06:24 PM:name=businessman332211)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(businessman332211 @ Jun 15 2006, 06:24 PM) View Post[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
I could start putting parts of different open source cms's to make the god of all cms's
[/quote]
Haven't we already had the discussion about reinventing the wheel? Man, you're a glutton for punishment.

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#14 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 01:37 PM

Ok I give up, let me start with a test run, I am going to test joomla out on a free site I am doing for someone on the side, so i don't take any chances. I am using www.bluehost.com instead of figuring it out from the site, I am downloading it through a fantastico auto install. Is this is the same as getting it off the site, I am also wondering, I use dreamweaver, I don't use design mode or anything, everything I do I do by hand, all php, mysql, xhtml, css but so far as far as colors go, dreamweaver seems to be the best editor for me, as having auto ftp and everything, I just go into code view and can do everything by hand, the reason I hated frontpage was because I do everything by hand, I like it that way, when I go into code view in frontpage, and start typing code, it always changes it, unacceptable for a editor, it should give the designer the control over the code. And that criples me because everything I do is in code view. The thing I was wondering is I auto installed it, and I have been uploading everything to my computer but it's taking about a long time, am I suppose to use the joomla files the same ways as I would use a regular file, just work on them on my computer and upload them or am I missing something??

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#15 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 02:25 PM

I really need some help, I tried cms made simple, I don't know about using it on all my sites, but I might, I want to get some help on this if someone has used it.
Ok I am installing it in my directory I looked at the admin, the question I have is about the admin page. for instance I could go to
www.freelancebusinessman.com/cmsfolder/admin
BUt is there a way for me to work on the files through dreamweaver code page, I like the text coloring and everything, the other thing I wanted to ask, was is this looked down upon, using a cms, I can still say I do it all by hand right, if I just rewrite it :S:S;S

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#16 redarrow

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 02:43 PM

You got 2 years of php exsperience and you dont know where the page is to alter what a joke lol.


With what you no from your website telling us you should easly find the pages or database entrys.

if you study the code its easy.

good luck.

ps. you should be consulting the script's forum for help.

open up your eyes and read this on the joomla forum ok

[a href=\"http://forum.joomla.org/\" target=\"_blank\"]http://forum.joomla.org/[/a]
Wish i new all about php DAM i will have to learn
((EMAIL CODE THAT WORKS))
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((PAYPAL INTEGRATION THAT WORKS))
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#17 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 02:59 PM

[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]You got 2 years of php exsperience and you dont know where the page is to alter what a joke lol.[/quote]

If you feel like that, I feel sorry for your abilities in interacting with other humans. I said specifically my "experience" is limited, my knowledge is not.
My 2 main studies currently have been "security" and "performance" in scripts, not how to write them, I just started my career 2 weeks ago for gods sakes. You see I have already been appointed head of security, seo, and submission for one company, temporarily, I don't suck, I just don't know much about programming and databasing. I know sql, but I am getting better, I am not familiar with these damn 3rd party programs yet either, I am not asking about joomla, I am asking about cms made simple, it's new to me.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]With what you no from your website telling us you should easly find the pages or database entrys.[/quote]
Again I have no experience, I just have studied knowledge, I recently started when I had the advice of getting my nose out of books and getting my hands on it.

Sorry if I sounded offensive, but telling me I was a joke, it's a nice way to talk to someone. I know more about Web Sites than you would suspect, I am just new to programming/databasing.
www.funnyemailforwards.com to me was the hardest thing I ever encountered, but I am still fighting, and I have tripled my knowledge with that one site, and gotten some form to my programming.

I decided what I wanted to do now, I am going to go ahead, and start from scratch if testing cms made simple, I want something that doesn't necessarily have an admin like this, I want one that can be used from a editor like notepad or something else. For the designer, adn the admin page, can have parts connected too, I will work on doing this in the future, I want to play with cms mdae simple, I am installing it now and giving it a try on one of the sites, and see if it's like I wanted, if not, I have other ideas.
I am not necessarily inventing the wheel, but other developers out there, when they get to the point where they are good, they start created classes, then templates, and scripts for everyday things, I would rather earn my way through experience and time, that go to other things.

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#18 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 03:54 PM

What I want to do is learn some more, then I will start making php classes, for like connecting to database, and everything, or functions, then start including files, and using functions instead of rewriting all code, I will then create me some custom stuff. Like a script, that can be slightly modified for all purposes, when doing form validation and submission, and that has all the functions prepared to connect to a database using pear, so I can change around to do it with all databases, rather quickly.

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#19 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 07:51 PM

Here is what I want to find out, I have been looking at joomla most of the day, and cmsmadesimple. A cms is something I am not looking for, I don't know how to explain it, I want something to where I can build the site, using dreamweaver(code view), and do all the css/xhtml myself, and do all the php/sql programming myself, and javascript, with the regular ftp'ing and everything. Then I want to find some kind of control panel, for AFTER the site is built, my client later on down the road can go to it and do some basic stuff, for instance if I have a picture gallery I added into the site, he could add pictures, and picture sizes himself, delete and remove specific things from the database, and things like that. Other than that, that's it, maybe add new pages, with new content, but I don't see hte point. I just mean something to like connect to a pre-existing site, and allow for the the person to interact with the website I already made for them, joomla seems more to me like a wysiwyg editor, but with the ability to do a lot of things quicker, but I spend my whole development time in a joomla login area, making me feel more like I am using a wysiwyg editor, with not enough control, someone has to know how I feel, some ideas, something to point me in the right direction, this is driving me crazy.

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#20 freakus_maximus

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 08:20 PM

[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]Then I want to find some kind of control panel, for AFTER the site is built, my client later on down the road can go to it and do some basic stuff, for instance if I have a picture gallery I added into the site, he could add pictures, and picture sizes himself, delete and remove specific things from the database, and things like that. Other than that, that's it, maybe add new pages, with new content, but I don't see hte point. [/quote]

I think you are going to need to list item by item exactly what your client wants to be able to do with the finished product. The statement above is kinda contridicting, by that I mean, first you say 'do some basic stuff' then you say 'maybe add new pages'. There is a big difference between uploading some files or changing some text (basic stuff) and adding new pages not to mention the additional navigation points as well for the new pages.

Depending exactly what your client wants will shape what you need (pre-built or something custom). Until you have this defined (meaning exactly what you are expected to deliver) it's going to be hard to say which direction you should go and what will or will not suffice.

You are much better going with your own code for flexibility purposes, but you need to weigh that against the clients needs. If there is something that will do what is needed, then you should go with it and here is the reason why:

Your trying to satisfy your client and at the same time trying to design something that will also improve your experience and skillset. Often this work and learn mode can conflict with each other, so just a note to check yourself on that.

With that said, your still 'technically' building or implementing a CMS no matter how you look at it. Anything that allows the site owner or users to interact and change the way the site looks or possibly functions is a CMS. It's just a nifty little term that defines how one interacts and at what level.

Really what it boils down to is taking the list of things your client wants to do and build a panel (for lack of a better word, it's really just a form or forms) that gives them options and items they can change. That can include a WSIWIG type editor for text area (tinymce works great for this) and an area to upload files if need be. Of course add your security around it so only your client can get to the page.

Just some thoughts, hope it points you in the right direction!







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