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Guest kilbad

Is it "wrong" to piggyback off someone's wireless network?

Is it "wrong" to piggyback off someone's wireless network?  

77 members have voted

  1. 1. Is it "wrong" to piggyback off someone's wireless network?

    • Yes (always)
      16
    • No (never)
      22
    • Not when it's intentionally left open.
      35
    • Not when it's an emergency.
      5


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Guest kilbad
Is it "wrong" to piggyback off someone's wireless network? If so, in what sense?

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I'd say yes as you could be using that persons network to do illegal things. You are also stealling that persons service and bandwidth.

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If they're dumb enough to leave it wide open, and I need a connection, I will gladly use it.  I certainly wouldn't do anything illegal on it, however.

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my vote pretty much says it all. "not when it's intentionally left open."

Intentionally being the key word here.  why else would someone leave it open on purpose, except to allow other people to use it?

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I would if it was intentionally left open.

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Most people are too stupid to know how to lock it down, C_V.

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true, but again, keyword: intentional.  intentional means they left it open on purpose, which means they aren't too stupid to lock it down. They left it open on purpose, hence open invite.

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But how would you know if it's intentionally open? As ober says, many people don't know how to lock it down/encrypt it, so how would you know if it's open because they chose so, or if it's open because they don't know that it's open to all/don't know how to lock it?

Edit: I voted 'Yes (always)'.

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I said no. But not 'never'.

I might have voted 'when it's a emergency', because I do feel you shouldn't take to much advantage of someone else's stupidity. But emergency is such a heavy word.

[b]Examples:
Ok: [/b]You've just moved in and have to wait two weeks until you ISP has your connection set up.

If your neighbour finds out you pretend you're a novice and was 'very amazed' that internet was 'freely available' in this neighbourhood!

If he doesn't find out: after two weeks you try to get acquainted with your neighbours, you find out wich one has the unsecure network. You tell him 'someone' might be leeching his bandwith. You secure his network for him, and he is so gratefull that his connection is now once again at full speed, that he invites you to the yearly family barbecue! LOL....  :P

[b]Not ok:[/b] You've just moved in and since your neighbour has his connection wide open you save a few bucks by abusing his stupidity untill he comes knocking at your door, wich will probably be never.

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[quote author=Daniel0 link=topic=105646.msg431958#msg431958 date=1157961200]
But how would you know if it's intentionally open? As ober says, many people don't know how to lock it down/encrypt it, so how would you know if it's open because they chose so, or if it's open because they don't know that it's open to all/don't know how to lock it?

Edit: I voted 'Yes (always)'.
[/quote]
well i wouldn't know off hand, if i didn't know the person or anything, i wouldn't know if it was intentional or not.  But since the option states that it [b]is[/b] intentionally left open, then logically I would have to know it was intentional. I didn't make the question. 

Question:  [b]Is it "wrong"[/b] to piggyback off someone's wireless network?

Option 1 - "Yes" - this option would be that you would [b]not[/b] do it, whether the user knew it was open or not. You believe it is wrong.

Option 2 - "No" - this option would be that you [b]would[/b] do it, whether the user knew it was open or not. You do not believe it is wrong.

Option 3 - "Not when it's intentionally left open." - this option would be that you [b]would[/b] do it, [b]if they [u]intentionally[/u][/b] left it open. If you didn't know the person, never talked to him, saw no sign posted, etc etc.. then you wouldn't know if he intentionally left it open or not.  But option #3 states that it [b]was[/b] intentionally left open, so logically, you [b]must[/b] know the intentions. 

Option 4 = "Not when it's an emergency." - this option would be that you [b]would[/b] do it, if it were an emergency. 

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Well, providing I knew that a connection was left intentionally open, then I probably would too (except if my connection were better).

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I work for a WiFi Manufacturer so I know all the lovely tricks ;)

I remember one day when I was DJing at a private function I was able to log into 10 different wireless networks in the neighbourhood because people a) left their wireless routers with default passwords b) had no security enabled such as WEP or WPA c) had the router give out dynamic addresses to anyone who connected to.

Though I could get more into it but it is nice to have free internet access wherever I am. Alot of businesses are setting up free HotSpots (like Cafe's etc).

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It depends.  Before I got my wireless router I used to pick up signal when I was playing my PSP, so I used to go online.  That was once in a while though.

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I voted for the [i]intentially left open[/i] usage. If you vote "no, never," you're even ruling out the fact when you go visit someone and they have a wireless access point in their house. I went to visit my brother over the holidays, and I was able to "piggyback" on his access while visiting there. Now, in his case, I helped him lock it down when I left, but I didn't pay for his internet service, and I certainly don't feel it's wrong to use it when I'm there.

I definitely think there are a few things that would keep me from piggybacking on someone unbeknown to them, though:

1. If I'm doing anything corporately related (ie, making money) - at this point, I feel it's right for me to either be using someone's advertised free service (ie, WiFi or a friend's house) or to pay for my own.

2. If the user is doing anything illegal.

3. If the user is doing something that would violate the values of the provider. For instance, I definitely would have a problem with someone piggybacking on my connection and surfing porn sites all day, because with tracing, it would all come back to me.

My 2 cents.

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i live in an apartment building and apparently have very stupid neighbors.  At any given time I have 3 or 4 open connections.  Makes me wonder why I waste $39.95 a month for my own connection!

I personally lock mine down because I don't want to share my bandwidth or pay $40/month so some cheap dope can get free internet access when I have to pay.  Likewise, I generally don't steal my neighbors access unless there is some problem with my own home network and I need internet access to diagnose.

I think its wrong to piggyback when the wi-fi owner has not [b]clearly intended[/b] open use.  If its a coffee shop or hotel then obviously thats fine. 

[b]Would you steal someone's car if they left the key's in the ignition?  Its the same moral question.[/b]

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[quote author=wildteen88 link=topic=105646.msg422134#msg422134 date=1156547752]
I'd say yes as you could be using that persons network to do illegal things. You are also stealling that persons service and bandwidth.
[/quote]

I'd say if its open its a free for all. Yes you could say your stealing their bandwidth but I kind of see it the same as a man in the street with hundreds of 5 pound notes in his open hands waiting to see what happens as people walk by him.

If you don't want people to use your bandwidth you should do something about it, ignorance is not an excuse.

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Guest kilbad
That is what this thread is all about!

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ahh. thanks for the bump - it prompted me of a story I saw recently:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hereford/worcs/6565079.stm

it says that it's the first case of its kind, but shouldnt be long before i guess it's a bit more widespread. it's only when you get into the consequences of letting someone piggyback your network that you realise ALL the reasons why you should lock it down...

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[quote author=redbullmarky link=topic=105646.msg579530#msg579530 date=1177104223]
it's only when you get into the consequences of letting someone piggyback your network that you realise ALL the reasons why you should lock it down...
[/quote]

I don't know... based on that article, it almost makes me want to leave mine open and wait outside in the bushes to see what happens ;) ... Seems like, at least in this case, it was the people using the network that were in trouble, [b]not[/b] the network owners.

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sure - but am i right in thinking that if you can join someones wireless connection, that you become part of the local network just as if you're in the house? sure, passwords and what not can still get in the way of getting access to the files, but there are still things that it appears you can do when you're dealing with local as opposed to remote computers and there are still occasions when the individual computers aren't locked down at all.

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After reading this I tried to see if I could pick something up in my area and I guess most of my neighbors don't know anything about wireless security. I have a much better service then them so I wont be piggy backing off of them but it is good to know.. :P

Now as far as the poll goes I think that it is ok to piggy back. I don't really see anything wrong with it. For me, it is nothing like stealing a car or anything like that. I personally feel that as long as you are not doing anything malicious there is nothing wrong with it. For me it is like walking out my door and finding a 100 dollar bill. I know that it belongs to someone else but if I don't see them drop it I am going to keep it. Now people that sit in there cars outside someones house are up to no good and that is wrong.I don't see anything wrong with someone using an open connection for entertainment purposes.

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[quote author=tomfmason link=topic=105646.msg581247#msg581247 date=1177333810]
I don't see anything wrong with someone using an open connection for entertainment purposes.
[/quote]

It sort of depends on what kind of "entertainment" you are looking for...

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[quote author=Daniel0 link=topic=105646.msg581350#msg581350 date=1177342402]

It sort of depends on what kind of "entertainment" you are looking for...
[/quote]

LoL.. True. Yeah, I guess there is a big hole in that.. :P

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[quote author=tomfmason link=topic=105646.msg581369#msg581369 date=1177343235]
...I guess there is a big hole in that.. :P
[/quote]

i guess THAT depends on what sort of "entertainment" you're looking for ;D ;D ;D

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