Is it "wrong" to piggyback off someone's wireless network?

[roopurt18]

I think redbull has seen some of the same mpgs and avis I have.

As far as piggybacking, irregardless of what the piggybacker is doing, I don't really think it's wrong.  It's the responsibility of the network owner to set their stuff up correctly and just about every router contains instructions to do so.

I think one of the major downfalls of society is the lack of accountability.  If you leave your network open to the public and someone else uses it for illegal purposes, whether you like the idea or not, you're an accomplice.  Now if someone had taken steps to protect their network and someone broke into it, you're a victim and innocent bystander.

[neylitalo]

I'm going to throw some fuel on the fire.

What about our responsibility as people to be honest and respect one another? You know it's not yours, and you know they wouldn't appreciate it - why do you have the right to use the service that they paid for? Why are you allowed to take advantage of someone who knows less about network security than you do? Sure, some people just don't care, but you forget - this is still relatively new technology, and people aren't very well educated as to the risks and security pitfalls. WEP is crackable, and I've heard of a way to obtain WPA keys although I've never tried it. Just because you're using faulty technology, that doesn't mean that people are licensed to take advantage of it. Microsoft Windows is one of the least secure operating systems ever. Hell, they just released a critical security patch for a hole in ANIMATED MOUSE CURSORS. The vast majority of the world uses Windows, and I think you'll agree that people shouldn't take advantage of it "just because they can."

The moral of the story: "They should know better" isn't a valid excuse.

[Azu]

[quote author=kilbad link=topic=105646.msg422101#msg422101 date=1156541661]
Is it "wrong" to piggyback off someone's wireless network? If so, in what sense?
[/quote]Yes just like it is wrong to "piggyback" off of somebody's phone.

Hell it might even BE their phone for all that you know!

[neylitalo]

Just out of curiosity, how can you piggyback on someone's phone, and what would it accomplish? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

[LiamProductions]

Nope, but everyone has the choice of putting a password on there network  ;D like me and everyone else round my house  :'(

[Azu]

[quote author=neylitalo link=topic=105646.msg643502#msg643502 date=1184301425]
Just out of curiosity, how can you piggyback on someone's phone, and what would it accomplish? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
[/quote]By hooking up your phone to your phone line, just like you hook up your wireless internet to their wireless internet to steal bandwidth.

[Azu]

Oops typo, and for some reason this forum can't even let me edit my post now.
Meant to write this;
By hooking up your phone to [b]their[/b] phone line, just like you hook up your wireless internet to their wireless internet to steal their bandwidth.

[GingerRobot]

[quote author=neylitalo link=topic=105646.msg585527#msg585527 date=1177724533]
I'm going to throw some fuel on the fire.

What about our responsibility as people to be honest and respect one another? You know it's not yours, and you know they wouldn't appreciate it - why do you have the right to use the service that they paid for? Why are you allowed to take advantage of someone who knows less about network security than you do? Sure, some people just don't care, but you forget - this is still relatively new technology, and people aren't very well educated as to the risks and security pitfalls. WEP is crackable, and I've heard of a way to obtain WPA keys although I've never tried it. Just because you're using faulty technology, that doesn't mean that people are licensed to take advantage of it. Microsoft Windows is one of the least secure operating systems ever. Hell, they just released a critical security patch for a hole in ANIMATED MOUSE CURSORS. The vast majority of the world uses Windows, and I think you'll agree that people shouldn't take advantage of it "just because they can."

The moral of the story: "They should know better" isn't a valid excuse.
[/quote]

Corr, we're really getting a bit of a philosophical debate going on here now aren't we?

Might be a bit late to this thread, but thought id throw my opinion in.

As neylitalo says, just because you can use it doesn't mean you should use it. However, I think i most agree with those that says it depends on the situation. Permantly using someone else's wireless network is a world away from taking advantage of someone elses to fix your broken network. If you're not benefiting from it particularly(that is, you're still paying for yours anyway), and the person from whom you are piggybacking is not affected by it(which is most likely) then i would think there is no real moral issue.

[Azu]

Well, I hope you don't get caught :)
I know that if I caught someone trying to hack into my network and steal my internet, I would definitely press charges, and I'm sure most people would to.

If you think it's worth the risk of having legal action taken against you, and you have no morals, then by all means, go right ahead.

[neylitalo]

[quote author=Azu link=topic=105646.msg652627#msg652627 date=1185256274]
Well, I hope you don't get caught :)
I know that if I caught someone trying to hack into my network and steal my internet, I would definitely press charges, and I'm sure most people would to.
[/quote]

Just out of curiosity, how do you plan to translate a MAC address (which you may or may not be able to determine, depending on the quality of your AP) to a person to press charges against?

And I can honestly say that I'd just find a way to stop them, and call it good enough. You're going to have a pretty thin case against them, and it just wouldn't be worth the time and effort.

[GingerRobot]

There have actually been a few cases(albeit very few and isolated) here in the UK of people successfully pressing charges against someone using their internet without permission.

[timmy2]

no  ;)

[neylitalo]

[quote author=timmy2 link=topic=105646.msg659971#msg659971 date=1186000877]
no  ;)
[/quote]

Contrary to popular belief, one-word responses aren't actually that helpful. Please take this into consideration the next time you feel the urge to hit four buttons and press "Post". Thanks.

[Azu]

[quote author=neylitalo link=topic=105646.msg656523#msg656523 date=1185683614]
[quote author=Azu link=topic=105646.msg652627#msg652627 date=1185256274]
Well, I hope you don't get caught :)
I know that if I caught someone trying to hack into my network and steal my internet, I would definitely press charges, and I'm sure most people would to.
[/quote]

Just out of curiosity, how do you plan to translate a MAC address (which you may or may not be able to determine, depending on the quality of your AP) to a person to press charges against?[/quote]Dunno. I guess I'd leave that to the police/FBI/whatever.

[markjoe]

It's not the same as stealing someones car. The car cannot be in two places at once, a wireless network can. Applies to the phone line thing also.
I see nothing wrong with using an open network for typical, normal usage on occasion (which the network owner would never notice). I have seen quite a few networks left open on purpose, most are unknowingly open.
If somebody is watching their paid-for cable TV on the porch, is it ok to stand on the sidewalk and watch it?
The TV thing is not completely analogous, but it's closer than stealing their car or phone line.

Ah, crap I can't believe I got sucked into this ancient debate...

[Azu]

[quote author=markjoe link=topic=105646.msg686295#msg686295 date=1188636218]It's not the same as stealing someones car.[/quote]Ah, the old "if I can't physically touch it, then I should be able to do whatever I want to it without being punished for breaking the law" argument.
Tut tut tut...

[neylitalo]

[quote author=Azu link=topic=105646.msg688658#msg688658 date=1188947201]
[quote author=markjoe link=topic=105646.msg686295#msg686295 date=1188636218]It's not the same as stealing someones car.[/quote]Ah, the old "if I can't physically touch it, then I should be able to do whatever I want to it without being punished for breaking the law" argument.
Tut tut tut...
[/quote]

I'm afraid you missed the point. Stealing someone's car would be the same as disconnecting your neighbor's internet connection and re-routing it to your house. Piggybacking on someone's wireless network without their knowledge and/or permission is (nearly, but not quite) analogous to hopping in the car's back seat, hiding until they arrive at their destination, and then getting back out. You're not depriving them of the use of the (car|internet), but you're still benefitting from it.

[Azu]

Except not everyone has unlimited bandwidth and connection speed.
So although it wouldn't be like completely stealing their car, it would be like stealing gas out of it that they paid for.

It makes it run out faster. It can catch them unaware and end up with them running out of it when they aren't expecting that to happen it. It makes them have to pay more money to buy more it.


ANYWAYS, a crime is a crime. Trying to say that there is a crime that is worse then it is pretty stupid. If you break the law, be prepared to be punished, and don't be surprised if you are. And if you are, don't even think of trying to tell the judge "OMG I DIDN'T STEAL A CAR OR KILL ANYONE!!!"

[GingerRobot]

[quote author=Azu link=topic=105646.msg689505#msg689505 date=1189032590]
ANYWAYS, a crime is a crime. Trying to say that there is a crime that is worse then it is pretty stupid. [/quote]

That is actually one of the most rediculous things i've heard in my life! Of course some crimes are worse than others!

I guarantee that all of us "break the law" in some small way almost every day! To take just an example that spings to mind immediately; pick up a couple of books you have near you and check the copyright. Most [i]specificially[/i] say you cannot even lend a book to someone. When was the last time you lent a book? Im sure you have at some point. Shock horror! You broke the law! Get off your high horse.

*Steps down from soap box*

Edit: Thought i should add, im not necessarily saying that it is OK to use someone elses internet - more commenting on assertion that a crime is a crime.

[Azu]

[quote author=GingerRobot link=topic=105646.msg690010#msg690010 date=1189091997]
[quote author=Azu link=topic=105646.msg689505#msg689505 date=1189032590]
ANYWAYS, a crime is a crime. Trying to say that there is a crime that is worse then it is pretty stupid. [/quote]

That is actually one of the most rediculous things i've heard in my life! Of course some crimes are worse than others![/quote]

No shit sherlock. Why don't you try to comprehend what I wrote?

Here I'll try to spell it out in baby words for you; no SHIT that stealing a god damned CAR is bad.
But just because one crime is worse then another crime doesn't mean it's okay to commit the other crime!
Wtf is so hard to understand about this? Sheesh!
Is it really THAT hard to follow the law?

[GingerRobot]

Firstly, it would probably help if you typed in comprehensible english if you want me to be able to understand you.

Second, my argument still stands. Im sure you would agree that there isn't really anything wrong with lending a book to a friend. You are, however, likely to be breaking the copyright on the book, and hence be committing a crime. In this way, i think most people would agree that breaking the law actually is acceptable in some circumstances. The real issue here is where that 'line' (which is different for everyone, and depends entirely on their morality) is.

Oh, and third, why exactly do you feel the need to be so aggressive? I, of course, dont take it personally - since it is obviously not personal, given some of your other posts.

[neylitalo]

Thread closed. Azu, watch your language. This is an official warning.

[cgm225]

I read an interesting article here:

[code]http://www.govtech.com/gt/262378?topic=117671[/code]

[quote=http://www.govtech.com/gt/262378?topic=117671]If you're not encrypting your wireless communications, anyone close by can easily use your connection and while the intention may not always be malicious, the consequences can be severe," continued Cluley. "[b]All Internet users need to wake up to the threats[/b] and ISPs must take greater steps to educate customers about the risks and how to overcome them.[/quote]

Having an unsecured wireless network is simply stupid.

[947740]

It is illegal, because you are [i]stealing[/i].  What if that person happens to be a federal worker or something crazy like that?

[neylitalo]

Right. We've been over this a dozen times. (947740, read the thread first. Thanks.) I'm going to leave the thread unlocked on the off-chance that someone can provide some valuable insight on the subject, but at the first hint of anything I don't like, it's getting locked again.