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New site, after feedback and criticsm


stevengreen22

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Hi all,

 

I've made a site for a uni project that has developed into a lot more.  I'm looking at it as if it were my child and not seeing the obvious flaws( theres likely to be amny)

 

would anyone mind having a look and giving me some honest feedback.

what would be better would be if you used the forum for feedback to leave it in.

 

Awesome!

 

Thanks

 

www.webdesignprofessionals.co.uk

 

 

 

 

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if i am really honest, i don't like it at all. I don't want to be rude, but i do like to be honest.

the domain-name claims that it's for web professionals. In other words your audience are People that earn a living with web design on a daily basis....

 

Now back to reality, I know anyone that does a good job in web design that uses tables for designing the layout of a website.

Apart from the looks, which really reminds me of 1997 there are some other things which are a big no no in my honest opinion:

 

press the following link

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webdesignprofessionals.co.uk%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

 

yes that is your website and it produces 22 errors not warnings but errors. Now you can ask yourself as a web professional if it is correct you have those w3c images at the bottom of your page?

 

With the looks of the page, although the intend can be good, and maybe it was a struggle to get there, this is not how a webpage for web professionals should look like. We can of course tell for every detail what you could do, and how it could look, but make this project your own. Get a pen and pencil and draw your site on paper, show it to others, and ask if  they like it. Maybe you know someone that can draw good, ask him if he might want to redesign you site, and say it's for web professionals.

 

Hope this helps in a way, and again i don't want to be rude.

Good luck!

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thanks for checking it out so quickly....

I reckon I need to play a little defnesive here as this...is my baby.

 

This is the first site I've created from scratch, no templates, from scratch, I started off with tables and started using divs more and more as the pages progress but by that stage i was in 'too deep' and settled for th layout.

 

the design, is..fugly, no doubt, I'm waiting on a guy to create logo / header etc.

 

The pointof the site...when I was given the project, I didn't want ot invest hours of time into something that was redundant so i out an add out, the response was unreal so i figure theres a lot of people wanting webste and a lot more peopl besides that can design them, hence the name.  It will imporve and get cleaned up, check the back end functionalily of it, the script is fairly sold with the eception of stll faffing about with eregi etc.

 

the w3c, it WAS validated but dude...its HARD making sure eery thing is just so, I'd like you to show me a site that is completly compliant, by the time the project is done it will be but as I'm constantly tweaking and changing things I found myself spending more time on teir site instead of my own. the include files don't help.

 

I'm greateful for your opinion, by chance do you have a website fully validated online thats functional that i could look at?

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Roger that! :)

the w3c, it WAS validated but dude...its HARD making sure eery thing is just so, I'd like you to show me a site that is completly compliant, by the time the project is done it will be but as I'm constantly tweaking and changing things I found myself spending more time on teir site instead of my own. the include files don't help.

Its not hard at all to make a website that is completely valid, as far as errors. Warnings might be a different story but errors not. That validator tells you what you do wrong, so you only need to change it and your done. easy as that. for instance:

Line 39, Column 58: there is no attribute "height"

hmm, seems you use a height attribute where it's not allowed, so remove it!! Done, just 21 to go.

 

Now you may say it's hard (which is not like i just showed you), but that doesn't justify placing a mark on it that it is valid, because it's not.

 

Since i love my privacy on fora and that of my clients, i rather not says which designs are made by me, although i am proud of them and they are all valid. Besides that it's totally irrelevant because I don't have to proof myself here. You asked for criticism and you got it, if you respond to the critics, with: well how about you than you totally missed the point. Although the funny thing is my free blog (from blogspot.com) is as invalid as a hell. But hey I didn't do that markup  blogspot did ;D

 

If you want critics next time maybe specify on what part you want it. usability? speed? language? accessibility? layout?(edit: and you just did :) good one!)

Good luck!

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wow, you're really full of yourself eh...

 

I think the key thing to remember here is simply that constructive criticism from someone with knowledge is valuable, criticism from someone who just wants to run theor mouth is worthless.

 

So..to break it down...the design is flawed in that it's not pretty.  I've used tables, big deal. so...thats...about it then that you dont like with the exception of validating (MAYBE its simple for someone with more experience but until I see that from yourself then its irrelevant)

 

So..what do we have left?

We have a fully functional albeit basic community built from ground up with custom sql databases, custom script and a twatter rip off.  Forums using jquery and some fairly decent php.  This...came from nothing ecept a huge amoutn of time reading, testing, tweaking and testing some more (SO please forgive me for not remving the height attribute) -  So when you pull your head out of your... and display your 'talent' for the online world to mock I'll take your criticsim seriously, until then you may have the pleasure of touching yourself.

 

As for your other comment about askign for criticsim, yes, but did you see the part where it sadi only self righteous arrogant people need apply? No? Hmm...Maybe I'll check the attribute to make sure it displays properly.

 

If...theres anyone else who doesn't have their thumb where the sun doesn't shine that woudl like to comment, please feel free.

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your right Steven, i am full of myself and i have no idea  what i am talking about. I should also apologize for not showing my skills and identity in order to comment on your post. In particular in a forum like this with the subtitle:

Need someone to review your website and give you a critique about how it looks? Post your link in here and let other people help you decide what needs to be done!
I wish I were able to reason just like you Steven, that military and university combo sure pays off. Anyways thanks for the kind words.

 

Good luck with the study!

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Since you ripped up cssfreakie pretty bad for just trying to help, I'll step in here.

 

First of all, I'd be happy to show you my work that is 100% W3C compliant (even 509 accessible for a major player in the health care industry), however I'm legally not allowed to do so. I signed a NDA, in which I completely respect where cssfreakie is coming from on not telling you sites based off of privacy issues. Hell, even the Validator is compliant ;) When your page is validated & compliant, trust me, it makes designing & coding it a lot easier because you don't have nearly as many cross-browser issues. Sure, most pre-made softwares might not validate (like this site), but that doesn't mean your page shouldn't. After all, it is to make your life easier and to provide a better experience for your user.

 

Let's start with the design and work from there. You want me to be honest, here you go. The design is a mix of 1990's and the web 2.0 feel... which is ironic for the given "company".  I'd suggest losing the background and find something a little more elegant. Same thing with your buttons... why not practice some CSS and style your buttons nicely instead of using crude images? For example the "lost password" button doesn't really say what it is. For all I know it could be "what is a password?" article. I guess we'll see what the new header comes to be, but a "website under construction" image always reminds me of the good times at Geocities ;)

 

Try using an external CSS file instead of inline styling, it'll probably help with reducing the amount of times you have to copy/paste or rewrite parts. You could even use a CSS framework if you so desired. But, as cssfreakie said... you need to get away from tables. It might be frustrating at first but in the long run it's better you've learned it. Remember - tables are for tabular data, not for design.

 

Now moving onto functionality... do you have a test login account for us to use? Most people won't want to register an account and would prefer to test with a test account. Also, when you visit pages logged out that you should be logged in... like this one or that one, you'll get a simple text "Please login or register before posting a new topic>", but there is no design! Where did it go?! The thread view isn't terrible, although I'd like to see the Author's first post the same layout as the rest (the name/title in the box)... but it can still be a different color. Also why is the forum a different color scheme than the main site?

 

I do like the idea of having a changelog on a website... although I think in this case it isn't too necessary. A to-do list like that should be placed in a project tracking system, or some sort of issue/to-do list manager.

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I'm glad you stepped in, thats much more constructive with insight, not just trashing it.

 

The forum does look better and I'm halfway to changing the remainder of the site to the same, I have external css that I'm using...actually thought those buttons loked good :) before that It was text.  What I initially wanted was an opaque rigid topbar with basic links and then a drop menu for the others, I do have a drop menu script that I need to learn before I use it, that shoudl tidy it up.

Thanks for pointing out the need to login bit, that shoudl be directed to a msgtouser page, will check it and amend.

I don't have any test logins, didn;t even think of that. I can create one and post it a bit later.

I've not copied the site etc, I've seperated the header, menu, footer etc and put them into include files to make the management easier.  THats one of the issues i had with validating, it would say line 100 when it could be anything as it read the includes as well, I spent so much time tweaking that I eventually decided to finish the site and then clean it up, although as you say...if it makes things easier then maybe I'll do it today at work.

 

the changelog....my pride and joy, many many hours poured into that, it stays :)  The forum still needs a lot of work, need to implement a notification, include recent subject on main page, layout etc.  It's still early days, I wanted it to wrk but good point on the message, it will look better that way.

 

I've gotten rid on the buttons, see, the thing is, I'm learnign FIreworks at the same time, as soon as I discover somethign new there I want to use it.  But clean is better

 

Thanks again

 

 

 

 

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stevengreen22,

 

I'm guessing you aren't aware that a lot of people have computers these days with 1920x1280 or greater resolution.

 

trainwreck.jpg

 

Now in regards to your response to cssfreakie, I think you can tell from his username that he takes css and design pretty seriously.  He pointed out that you you are displaying two validation badges, that somewhat comically show that your site isn't even close to validation, and when he pointed this out, you made excuses, when the proper reply is -- ok, thanks let me get busy fixing those.  Then you went on to dismiss many of his points, which if anything were expressed diplomatically, and needless to say your response turned personal and combative.  Not a great start.

 

As for your php code, we haven't seen any of that, and this isn't really the place for a discussion of your code, but I'm going to go out on a limb just based on the general level of ineptitude on display, and warrant a guess that your code is not very good at all.  For example, while looking at your site, I noticed a broken include that was spitting out an error where content should be. Since this is, I assume your production server, it shows that you're not even aware of what the proper error settings should be as you leak out errors for the world to ponder.

 

Sure people might sugarcoat this, but I don't see the value of that.  Your site is dated, amateurish, beyond ugly, full of bad html code, inconsistencies, non-standards compliant html, cruddy images, etc.

 

And to make matters worse you've revealed yourself to be combative and resistant to the very constructive criticism you claim was your goal in the first place -- which is something we don't appreciate here.

 

Stop defending the indefensible if you truly hope to learn anything.  Realize that you are not going to get much "constructive" criticism on your present site, because candidly, it's a complete tear down.

 

I'm not joking whatsoever when I say that there is not a single element you have that is worth saving, with the possible exception of some of your serverside code. 

 

You need to start over from scratch and go back to the drawing board with at very least, goals of:

 

-Finding some sites that have the type of layout and design sensibility you would like to emulate and *study* their markup and css.

-Focus on clean css driven design with semantic markup

-having a seperation of logic and markup in your php code.

 

I'd go further and suggest that you attempt to use a framework or at very least an MVC if you truly are interested in approaching what is considered best practice for the development of a modern website.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I think the key thing to remember here is simply that constructive criticism from someone with knowledge is valuable, criticism from someone who just wants to run theor mouth is worthless.

Having  been a member of this forum for a total of 2 days does not qualify you to judge who is knowledgeable and who isn't.

 

So..to break it down...the design is flawed in that it's not pretty.  I've used tables, big deal. so...thats...about it then that you dont like with the exception of validating (MAYBE its simple for someone with more experience but until I see that from yourself then its irrelevant)

You can see it for yourself if you would take the time to read some of his many helpful replies to others.

 

So..what do we have left?

We have a fully functional albeit basic community built from ground up with custom sql databases, custom script and a twatter rip off.  Forums using jquery and some fairly decent php.  This...came from nothing ecept a huge amoutn of time reading, testing, tweaking and testing some more (SO please forgive me for not remving the height attribute) -  So when you pull your head out of your... and display your 'talent' for the online world to mock I'll take your criticsim seriously, until then you may have the pleasure of touching yourself.

You are a rude and crude ass. Too bad I am not a moderator or I would simply ban you from this site. You have no defense for your outdated and simply ugly web site so you take to a personal attack without knowing one thing about the person trying to help you.

As for your other comment about askign for criticsim, yes, but did you see the part where it sadi only self righteous arrogant people need apply? No? Hmm...Maybe I'll check the attribute to make sure it displays properly.
You surely defined yourself here...self righteous and arrogant.

 

If...theres anyone else who doesn't have their thumb where the sun doesn't shine that woudl like to comment, please feel free.

I would be glad to help you when you can learn to spell theor, twatter, amoutn, criticsim, askign, theres and woudl. As giz commented your code is as bad as your spelling.
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I'm extremely impressed with myself and how agitated you're all becoming, to the guy that comment on my spelling...you want to pick up  on a few mistypes...? please, you're better than that surely. (Ps..."TWATTER" = "Twitter" - if you'd bothered to take the time to look at the site before running your mouth you might have noticed it)

 

To the other guy that was constructive.  You're right, I've been workign on validating it and it does make things easier, workign(oops) througha  page at a time and steadily getting it better, theres a few issues where I've included code within the php script to display photos etc and i'm getting a error for that but until I learn how to solve it, that will have to remain for now (is on index page, 22 errors, all the same issue. 

 

Anyway...Have changed the layout agian, still needs tweaking but no fireworks or editing prog available at work so that will keep until later.

 

I've got rid of the buttons, were fugly. More basic bar with a css drop down that hasn't been assigned yet but already looking better.

 

 

The test login - test@test.com (original) all will work except the forgot password. 

For the guy who knocked the PHP script, go take a peek you mug, you can knock the design but considering this is my first site I don't think you can say jack.

 

Right then....

I'm ready for the next lot of abuse.....

 

 

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Steven,

You have asked for a critique and that's what you got.  Please don't take it personally, many of the comments and suggestions are perfectly valid and helpful.  Let's not turn this into a blood bath.

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I know you have taken some of the criticism here with open arms.  And it's your right to accept/reject whatever advice/suggestions/criticism you get.  Though if you think you know better, why post asking for help in the first place, except for...what, getting a pat on the back?  If you are going to take any of it personal, then you can go somewhere else.  We are most definitely not here to just scratch your belly and tell you what a good doggy you are.

 

Yes, you have taken some of the advice and made some changes.  Good job!  But then you got all hostile about rejecting other things, and near as I can tell, your only real defense for those things is "But I spent a lot of time on this, it stays!"  Are you even listening to yourself?  Can you not see how illogical that statement is?  I can spend an hour squeezing my butt-cheeks to the point of purple face and plop out a massive steaming pile of poo.  And I can zip-loc that shit up and display it on my mantle for how proud I am of it.  But it doesn't change the fact that it's a pile of shit, and that guests I invite over are going to call me out on it.

 

You are making one of the most fundamental errors of web design - building/designing for yourself rather than your users.  Bottom line is you asked for honest opinions, and you are getting them.  If you cannot take being told your shit stinks by other people (read: people other than yourself) then you will never succeed as a web developer/designer.  That's the cold, hard fact of running a business or succeeding a job in general.

 

 

I'm sorry that you put a lot of time and effort into something, only to be told that it sucks.  You are not be the first person to have spent a lot of time and effort on something that sucks.  It's like when my son makes a drawing of the family with his crayons.  He's all proud of it and he shows it to me and stuff.  Does he think it's great? Yes.  Do I think it's great?  Yes, but not because it is a good work of art.  I like it because it came from him and it has personal sentiment, and I makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside that he views me as being 100 feet tall because I'm that important to him. 

 

But that does not translate to being a good work of art, from a purely academic point of view.  And if he asks me how good it was from a technical PoV, I will tell him it sucks.  But more tactfully, because he's a kid.  But you are not a 5 year old kid, are you? 

 

That doesn't give us license to call you personal names etc...and near as I can tell, the only one who got personal about it was you.  It's up to you whether or not you heed advice/criticism.  But either way, if you can't take the heat, then get out of our kitchen.

 

 

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Until your site validates, you shouldn't have validation icons on it.

 

I think you should change your color scheme.  The dark gray gradient bars look somber, and make any text on them all but unreadable.

 

You should look into tightening up your site navigation.  It's disjointed, for one (do you really need to tell people about your incremental updates if the site is for 'professional' developers?  Why is it necessary to have links above the header image?), and none of the links stand out.  If you're going to keep the horizontal bars, look into making navigation buttons.  They're fairly simple to make with just HTML and CSS, and you can make them dynamic by adding a hover state to them.

 

You need to fix the header image itself.  It looks flattened.  And get rid of the under construction image.

 

I'm wondering why you want to show random members' avatars/images on the home page.  They don't really say anything about the site itself, and certainly don't entice someone to join.

 

You need to remove the big, blue buttons from your forum pages.

 

As a developer, you need to be able to step back and look at your site as a whole.  Everything needs a purpose.  As proud as you may be about certain bits and pieces, if they don't fit into what the site should be, or if they're superfluous or distracting, you should change or remove them.  A good developer knows when to edit their work.  It takes a while to get good at it, but you should always try to divorce yourself from whatever emotional attachment you may have so you can use a critical eye.

 

Something else to remember is that when you put a project up for public consumption, there will be criticism.  That criticism will be blunt.  Getting angry and defensive only reduces our inclination to help you.  You asked for our honest opinion.  We gave it.  Your site is very antiquated (to put it delicately).  Putting the word 'Professional' in it only exacerbates the problem, because, as developers, we have a very clear idea of what professional is.  This site doesn't even come close to meeting the bar.  Something like this shouldn't even be on a live server for all to see, given its unfinished state.

 

For the most fundamental problems, I suggest getting updated learning resources.  Get the HTML 4.01 spec and the CSS 2.1 spec.  Learn how to size and position divs.  Learn the box model (Google it), and go to Smashing Magazine for inspiration.  Above all else, take a good, hard, critical look at existing sites.  The one criticism we've all shared is that your site looks incredibly dated.  And it really does.  It's as if you dabbled with websites in the late 90's and never really looked at how they've changed and matured over the last decade or so.  Look at the commonalities modern sites share in terms of layout, color, navigation, etc., and contrast that with where you are now.

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Thankyou, the most helpful post top date.  I've been working on the site today and tidying it.  If you have a peek now you'll see the buttons gone (I did like them but when I took a  step back...they were poop)

 

I've put up a basic drop down menu for now, I thin I'll work on that, reason for the links above the header (will change maybe..) is that I wanted that main bar at the top to be opaque and rigid with just the most important links on it(home etc) then the content below with a navi bar dependant on what is happening to the site.

The greay bars, they are weak, prioblem is, I like coding more than drawing / designing so there a great weakness there.  The logo, I'm hoping this graphic designer the partner works for will be releasing his input soon.

 

I worked on the html coding for the validation...quite simply...a lot was easy to solve but there were some awkward bits I simply couldn't deal with based on what i know. The script displaying the random members (You're right again... Will reword and move to the bottom of the page - is a feature and, yes, may be removed) the script...it's within the php element of the page and outiside any body tags and i get an error saying a div is not allowed there. Have no idea at the minute how I can change that to make it validate it...Hence....VALIDATION LINK REMOVED, The CSS one stays :)

 

The links do need to be bolder & colour changed, I need to find a colour scheme that I'm happy with and can then work from that.

 

Thankyou agian for taking the time to look at the site and comment, I may have been harsh before but I felt justified in writing what I did, this has simply come from nothing, we've had no lectures on it and I've spent so many hours watching / reading tutorials my eyes hyave started to bleed, but I enjoy doing it which is why I'll continue.  As an example, you mentioned adding a hover state to the navi bar...I'll need to read about how to apply that effectively before doing, this is not somethign I've had a great deal of experience in.  Still...thanks again..Have a peek every now and then and see the gradual impriovements...oh...image gone.

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Nightslyr

The one criticism we've all shared is that your site looks incredibly dated.  And it really does.  It's as if you dabbled with websites in the late 90's and never really looked at how they've changed and matured over the last decade or so.

 

Seems I've heard that before... :D

 

Problem was it was dead on the money. The last time I had fooled with a web page was in the early nineties. So I scrapped my beloved web site which I busted my behind on and redesigned it. That is phpF and I did it.

 

And the guys herein commenting on this post are the ones that made it happen. And who spent the most time helping me? You guessed it...cssfreakie

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and your o[inion of the site? seeing as you've been there and done it before?

 

His approach is entirely different than yours has been. 

 

This is the result he achieved:  http://bayarearcsociety.com/.  And the site is *deep* in terms of features and content.

 

I don't have a link to his original site for comparison purposes, but our criticism included many of the same complaints about yours. 

 

When he was advised to redo substantial elements of his site, and do what essentially was a ground up rebuild, he dug into it, read materials, studied and came back with pointed questions.  In a nutshell, he was was open to suggestions and listened to the advice he was given, and flat out worked his ass off, and the results speak for themselves.

 

Your site is a blob of nested tables.  That is not how sites are done in 2011. 

 

You need to start from scratch.  Sorry but that is the bottom line.  If you're truly interested in learning how to make a quality website then you'll go back to the drawing board.

 

Take a look here:  http://www.csszengarden.com/

 

Click on some of the designs on the right.

 

Realize that every design is based on the *exact same html markup*.  All they are able to do is add a style sheet with images.

 

Hopefully it will open your eyes to how completely off track you are.

 

This thread has a lot of excellent discussion that is probably highly applicable to your problem:  http://www.phpfreaks.com/forums/index.php?topic=323872.0

 

 

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the site wouldn't load.

 

I had a look at the other site, that has some impressive stuff and blows mine away.  I have to present it on fri so very unlikley to get a great deal dine by then, after I can start the remodel.  Daft questino now and I can prob hazard a guess at the answer...

 

Virtually all of the important stuff I have, the script etc is in include files to help segregate and trouble shoot.  These have been placed within the divs that are in the tables and Yes, i know that tables are frowned upon and those sites/examples are awesome, but...is it possible to implement the php inot the new site without losing it.

 

I started using tables as one of the better tutorials used them and that was how the site began.

 

I was going to work on a pm system and more stuff for the forum but I think now i'll look into rebuilding the site. 

 

The joys of learning.

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There is hope for you yet it seems. 

 

I mentioned the best practice of seperating markup from content. 

 

If you went through and found all the places where you are outputting markup and moved those into seperate php files, you'd be left with the basic logic of your site.  Many people implement simple template systems doing only that.  If there is substantial value in your code, you'll be able to repurpose and reuse it in a new site. 

 

In the thread on crmamx's site I have a response early on where I recommended a basic skeleton structure with a junction box/controller script. Take a look at that post, and read through for followups. 

 

Get firebug for firefox and learn how to use the inspect feature in order to analyze what other people are doing, and how they achieve specific effects.

 

I feel like I'm repeating things that are in the thread I linked.  I would rather see a minimal/stripped down site at this point, that was based on simple/clean markup and html and some basic structure, with a basic style sheet that starts with a reset and provides a minimum of styles.  Once you have that, it will become a lot clearer to you that this is not a journey of a thousand miles.  I've been doing web development since the WWW started, and I still learn something new on a regular basis. 

 

 

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Ideally, your HTML, CSS, and JavaScript should largely be a skin you place on top of the PHP script, which is the part of the system that's actually doing work.  This allows one to work with one component without worrying about screwing up the others.  One of the traps newbies fall into is mixing and matching PHP and HTML in large quantities in the same files.  The problem with that approach, as you're starting to see, is that your site logic gets tangled up in what you need to do in order to simply display your site.

 

There's a term which denotes a best practice - Separation of Concerns.  PHP largely shouldn't be concerned with HTML, nor should HTML markup be concerned with CSS, etc.  Each component of your system has a clearly defined responsibility, and it should only be focused on that responsibility.  Achieving this separation requires discipline on your part.  It's impossible to have complete separation - you'll need to write a little PHP in your markup to display processed values, for example - but the goal is to keep each component as separate as possible, with communication between application layers happening only when necessary through explicit channels.  To achieve this separation, you need to use modern techniques: external CSS, unobtrusive JavaScript, and take care when you exit PHP for HTML markup.

 

Separation of concerns promotes what is known as loose coupling.  Coupling is how tightly related your components are to each other.  Gauging coupling is as simple as figuring out if a change in one part of your system will necessitate a change in others.  Tight coupling is what you're currently experiencing.  You can't make non-trivial changes to your site without changing a bunch of other things in seemingly unrelated places.

 

Well-formed PHP apps do all of their processing upfront.  When the results of that processing are available, the script(s) then redirect the user or displays the proper thing based on those results.

 

Since you apparently have a due date of sorts, it's your call to figure out how to best spend your time and discover what to do to best get you to the next stage.  Long term, fixing your site architecture is paramount.  It will make subsequent updates to the layout so much easier.

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THanks to you both, the light has dawned it seems, gah, what a fking idiot, I spent so much time working with the tables when there's a better easier way of doing things.  It's slightly frustrating although...to make myself feeel a itiny bit better...I learnt a ton about how php, mysql and scripts work in relation to each other. Its jsut the design thats flawed, all the main bits are in sperate files, I'll need to redo some of them but for things like the edit member details, that would be okay left as a table....right?

 

Anyway....The plan...much reading and looking at those sites in this and the other thread, some good comments and ideas in there.

 

I have a top nav bar, a header, a menu and footer as seperate include files, I'll clean these up first as it'll be a gentle introduction to css, I sometimes jump in and miss the important things.

I'll copy the files to another location and work from there while leaving the other site as it is

 

The issue I have will alwasys be the images / design, coding I pick up reasonably quick but drawing and designing images isn;t a strenght, still, stuff to learn.

I've more than enough for th eproject ot be handed in, there was no specs, just simply design a site, it can be as good or poor as it likes so long as x number of functional links etc are there so thats ok, I just don't want to damage anything this close to deadline.

 

Right....time for some more learning.  Thanks for being .....reasonable/decent when you could just tell me where to **** off.

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and your o[inion of the site? seeing as you've been there and done it before?

 

I am not qualified to critique a web site. But I am qualified to critique the people that have been trying to help you. And I will tell you that they are the best you will find anywhere. Most of them do it for a living and then come here and donate their time to help newbies like me. They are not only experts at what they do, they are good people. And it irritates the hell out of me when somebody like you comes along espousing some of the stuff you started out with.

 

Even at that, you can see from gismola's reply that with a different approach, they are still willing to help you.

 

Take advantage of it.

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