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#21 freakus_maximus

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 02:43 PM

I think when mark said it was huddled, he meant it's all jammed over to the right with no real identifying seperators or space. You have the | (pipes) in between but they get lost with the other text. It's hard to glance at and realize there are multiple things there. A visitor should not have to guess at what is what, it should be clear and distinct.

If you want to keep it to the right, then I would suggest either finding a different seperator to use than the pipes or at least change the color of the pipes to something different than the color of your text.

#22 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 02:54 PM

Right now, I don't want to keep it anyway necessarily.

I am open to all advice, I am just trying to understand the advice now, ok
You, you suggested that I remove the borders totally, adn see how that looks right?
you also said something about the links, at the bottom, would they look better, in the middle or on the left, the link color I will put in there in a minute, as soon as I finish writing some more content.

Now what about the size of the footer itself, is it good/bad.
It is bigger in firefox, but in ie, it's really thin, is there something wrong or is the footer ok in general.
Any other advice, I am trying to understand everything that is being said, and trying to correct it all, or ateast try it all and see what response I get for the changes.

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#23 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 04:01 PM

Ok
http://www.freelance...aintemplate.php
I did a lot of what was suggested, I removed the borders, center aligned the footer information.
Any more advice, does this fix all the problems.

I am almost calling the coding stage complete, but I don't want to call it complete unless it looks good, I have tried to incorporate everything, everyone has told me.  Does this final copy, or is there something I am missing, something else I should be doing to it?

The content is almost done, after that, i am cutting up my includes, putting in my content, and working up the backend, I want to make sure this final copy looks good.

Sidenote- you mentioned a good green color for the links, do you mean the basic link color and the hover, can you recommend 2 good color's for that.
Thanks for all the advice, any last minute advice, or changes would be appreciated.  I want to go ahead and complete coding phase, and start putting in content later today, things are coming along rather well.

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#24 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 07:18 PM

http://www.freelancebusinessman.com/
here is the final copy but if anyone has any advice on changes to css that would be helpful.  Let me know,

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#25 redbullmarky

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 08:43 PM

i feel we're going down the same old road again....

1) your nav is not good - and still as not good as the last time i said it was not good. in fact, it's exactly the same.
2) your choice of font is not good.
3) your logo is bunched in the top left corner. your footer on the other hand spans the page. this makes the site look bottom heavy.
4) there's just no flow or consistency to it - its just things thrown onto a page in no particular way.


ok, so this topic is about layout (rather than content), and i know you'll probably come back with something like "Yeah, i'll do the writeups when I've perfected the layout" or something like that. (which begs the question that, as the layout is not complete, why have you made it your main site now?)

here's a paragraph about pricing.

My pricing is fair, I normally charge below the average market price. If I go hourly I almost alway's charge atleast 30 per hour, if I have the ability I try to do a per project price at all times, whenever possible. I charge hourly when the work is so sporadic I have a hard time determining an exact amount of time it might take to complete

1, fair pricing = admittedly expensive
2, atleast is two words = at least
3, 30 what an hour? coconuts?
4, having a hard time to determine completion time? at that sort of price, i'd want to know EXACTLY how many hours you would take, sporadic or not.

just read it back to yourself. it's not so much the spelling or the grammar, but it's a good example of the general lack of attention to detail - which was exactly the problem with your last few 'changes' to your site. i'd love to say that i thought you actually spend enough time on these sites/designs, etc, but i could almost bet my left nad on the fact that you spend most of the day asking for opinions and help, and rush out a new design/version as quickly as possible so that you can ask another question. when this topic was opened, you presented 4 designs - quickly that went to two and then all of a sudden, before you've corrected the problems or attempted to make it look half good, you've applied one of them to your site - only it's much worse than when originally presented.

maybe you should actually grab a beer, put your feet up, chill out and do some self-critique on your site - can you honestly say you're happy with it? can you say that, if you were a client, you'd pick this freelancebusinessman to do your site for 30 dollars/pounds/coconuts an hour, who has no idea how long it might take? do you think it truly shows your skill in the best light?

maybe you should stop trying to hard and have some fun with it.
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#26 AndyB

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 11:31 PM

I think it's almost tragic that you've spent so much time on this and that that is the 'ultimate' result.  I think it's a tribute to the good nature and patience of the people who have tried to help that they continue to try to help when probably 90%+ of their exellent suggestions and help appears to have been ignored.  If you're not going to act on people's advice, don't ask for it for free.

The font selections are crude, the spacing between the edges of the screen/edges of the containers is missing or far too small, the 'logo' is still amateur, the colours are weak, the header doesn't cross the page to match the footer, the 'logo' isn't blocked on the navigation, the navigation options make little or no sense to a prospective client .... and the few pages of your site that I scanned are still filled with grammar and syntax errors and mangled sentences with misplaced punctuation.

The best advice I can give you - again - is to apply your talents and energy to doing the things you do best. Hire someone to design a real site template. Hire someone else to rewrite your content so it flows, makes sense, and promotes your business.  Imagine how much you could have paid a designer and writer to accomplish those things if you had spent the same amount of time at $30/hour doing back-end work as you have spent on redesigning, tweaking, scrapping, redesigning, etc.

Edit: according to http://www.freelance...andservices.php, you have professionals handle graphics and content writing for you.  If your site is an example of those professionals' work, then stop paying them right now. If you're not using them, why not?  They're good enough to promote to your clients, but not good enough for you to use?  I just don't think you get it. Your web site is your very best chance to persuade prospective clients that they should choose you to invest their hard-earned cash.  It's the jewel in your portfolio, since you can lavish as much time as you want to on it without worrying about meeting a budget. If you won't take my advice to use profressionals to do it, take the advice you offer to your clients - let professionals do it.
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#27 akitchin

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 02:45 AM

i'm going to add this:

http://www.freelance...ervices/sql.php

even after everything, the site is broken.  would you feel confident shelling out money for someone to do your site for them when their own isn't even functioning properly?

#28 Daniel0

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 06:50 AM

Is this how it is supposed to look:
Posted Image
because I don't think it looks very nice.

#29 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 02:25 PM

I am not totally done with it yet.
I am still doing a lot with it.
All the content is still getting rewritten, proofread, editing, rewritten again.
The css is all getting rewritten to make it look 90% like the original layout I showed you, but with some improvements.  Also I am restyling the form's and doing a little witht eh color scheme, I will reshow it again next week.

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#30 akitchin

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 03:47 PM

once you yourself are totally satisfied with the site and it will NOT change for a little while, THEN post a critique.

I am not totally done with it yet.
I am still doing a lot with it.


if that's something you can say about ANYTHING, do not post it for critique.

#31 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 03:49 PM

I see people posting here all the time.  Not about full websites allways, sometimes about advice on a design, or presite construction.  Sometimes about just a logo, or piece of content, and there is nothing against the rule's about it.

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#32 KevinM1

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 03:57 PM

It looks very...minty.  I'm not a big fan of bright colors anyway, but the mint green with slightly darker green links is a bit overpowering.

I agree with the logo/footer combo looking bottom-heavy.

It all looks a bit spartan.  I'm no graphics designer, but if I had access to one (which you claim you do), I'd definitely use their services.  This looks more like a site a college professer would post assignments on rather than a site that's supposed to entice someone to purchase your services.  Where are the graphical sub-headers?

You should really give the user the ability to return to your homepage, either by making a link that explicitly says 'Home' or by making your logo a link back home (or, even better, do both).
Using 'global' is a sign of doing it wrong

#33 akitchin

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 04:01 PM

nothing against the rules, you're right.  but you do this repeatedly, and your threads consistently go to 2+ pages.  when other people post, there is at least closure at the end.  you've posted the same site many times over now.

#34 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 04:42 PM

Yes I am working on these now, I have the guy I mentioned in my site(the one that does graphic design ideas, and layout ideas(he is a graphic, layout designer).
I have him
restyling the form's, working over all the content, making my page look 100% like the layout he originally created, then I am going to get feedback and make further adjustments from there, that's what I am working on now, I am adding a homepage on there also, as soon as some of it get's situated.

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#35 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 01:32 PM

Ok, I have done a lot, I was wondering what direction I should take it in now.
www.freelancebusinessman.com
The 2 thing's I did so far, was spend about 2 hours fixing up the logo(re-writing the css for it), and putting in some javascript to make the left hand navigation, go down as far as the right column no matter how much content it had, that made that part look better.
Now, for the content, he is rewriting all teh content for me, because he has 7 years experience, he is my content writer.
So where do you think I should gow ith the layout now, I could keep making it more and more like the layout I originally had
http://www.freelance...yel_layout2.gif
Or I could start veering in another direction.  If I followed the layout he drew up, then I would decrease the logo some, and start working on the border's around the left nav, and top bar(logo).
If I did this, then it would take a few day's that's why I wanted advice on which direction I go before I start fixing up the top part.

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#36 akitchin

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 02:10 PM

have you even addressed ONE of the issues mark came out with?

i feel we're going down the same old road again....

1) your nav is not good - and still as not good as the last time i said it was not good. in fact, it's exactly the same.
2) your choice of font is not good.
3) your logo is bunched in the top left corner. your footer on the other hand spans the page. this makes the site look bottom heavy.
4) there's just no flow or consistency to it - its just things thrown onto a page in no particular way.


nav is still pretty much the same as it was before.  the font is the same.  the logo is STILL bunched in the top left and it breaks off right after with no continuity => your layout STILL looks bottom heavy.  i'd say there's slightly more flow to it, but frankly it looks the exact same.

i have another question: why bother publishing a site if it's perpetually changing, being re-written, made better, etc?  how does that make a client comfortable?  at least test this on the back side and put up a temporary placeholder on the front.

you have no right to ask us where we think you should go with the site when you haven't addressed a single issue we've laid out for you.  to disagree with these comments is one thing (in that case you likely wouldn't come back for more), but to claim you're actually considering the advice is preposterous.  this is a very common theme with you, and for some reason you can't get your head around that fact.

#37 jcombs_31

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 03:17 PM

Posted Image

I was bored, what do you think of that...

#38 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 04:38 PM

I apologize you feel that, way, Do not insult me again.  If you are going to respond to a post of mine, please use a calm tone, or I will abandon the post completely.  This is not the way to treat another human.

nav is still pretty much the same as it was before.  the font is the same.  the logo is STILL bunched in the top left and it breaks off right after with no continuity => your layout STILL looks bottom heavy.  i'd say there's slightly more flow to it, but frankly it looks the exact same.

i have another question: why bother publishing a site if it's perpetually changing, being re-written, made better, etc?  how does that make a client comfortable?  at least test this on the back side and put up a temporary placeholder on the front.

you have no right to ask us where we think you should go with the site when you haven't addressed a single issue we've laid out for you.  to disagree with these comments is one thing (in that case you likely wouldn't come back for more), but to claim you're actually considering the advice is preposterous.  this is a very common theme with you, and for some reason you can't get your head around that fact.

I agree with you on most of these issue's.  I am still working on that.  I disagree with the flow of the "navigation" itself, I will probably keep the current link structure.  However all of the advice mark offered so far is going to be done, as for "bottom heavy" I don't know if there's anything I can do about that, using that term, it sound's like it mean's it looks like it has a heavy(big) bottom.  If that is the term, then I have restricted the size of the bottom as much as possible.  While still keeping true to the original layout I am trying to achieve.  I consider, and look at all advice.  Not everyone on here, take's all advice that is given, sometime's someone just need's someone to talk to.  This isn't the case, I intend to atleast look at, consider, and weight heavily, any advice given to me on these forum's.  I come back for more because I trust the people on these forum's if I did not, then I wouldn't waste my time here.

Overall the "rough, and rude" part's of what you said I am going to disregard, the large volume's of useful advice I am going to listen too. At this point I had done 2 things, the left nav(extending to length of right content), adn fixed the bottom, I wanted to make sure that was doing some improvements.  Based on your response

i'd say there's slightly more flow to it,


That tell's me that it is improving and that is what I was wondering.
I am now going to move onto the next stage, restructure the look and feel of the left nav, right content, and top bar, and redo the logo, and make it exactly like that layout, compare it to your comments, do what I can, and ask again.

As for Jcombs.

I was bored, what do you think of that...

I like it a lot actually.  I am very surprise and think you are very creative.  Chances are I am going to keep the layout I have, remove the current logo I am using, cut the whitesace around the logo you showed me, down to logo size.  THen I am going to probably use that one, I like the color's it's going to go well with my layout once I am finished, and I am deeply grateful, thank you very much.


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#39 redbullmarky

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 05:03 PM

@BM re jcombs, agreed - the logo is good - nice job! edit:jcombs, what fonts are in that?

bottom heavy => the footer of your site has far too much prominence compared to everything else. it's dark and full width of screen. the rest of your site is light and bunched up, notably your logo. means the eyes drift to the bottom of the page first, which is the last thing that should be looked at.

as for the replies aimed back at akitchen, unfortunately he has a more than a point and i agree 100% with him. none of the previous advice is anywhere to be seen here, meaning everyone that's cared to offer advice previously has, to be frank, pretty much been wasting their time. still - i like to keep replying, as even though you're not personally taking it on board, i like to think there are members here and guests that watch these threads that are learning from it. lets face it - nearly 40 posts over 3 pages is more than enough reading material for "how to build a site that doesnt suck eggs.", covering pretty much every HTML/CSS/design topic ever invented.

cheers
Mark
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I say old chap, that is rather amusing!

#40 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 05:34 PM

i didn't mean anything personal to him, I just want to start removing the kind of remarks that seem rude.  Or directed toward's my personality.  That's why I am trying to more of, explain myself on each details.  As I said I have only done the footer, and the length of the left nav, now that I have gotten some positive feedback, the next things I am doing is replacing the logo, doing some more work with the bottom, maybe even restructuring the links/navigation, adn redo some of the box format's then see what you think again. All advice is appreicated, and thankful.  I try not to ignore anybody's advice even if it takes a few weeks.

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