Andy-H Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 What level do you feel that a junior (PHP) web developer should be at before being employed? I am currently working as a junior web developer, but before I got the job; I never thought I was good enough to get a job as a web developer, even a junior. Most job postings require a graduate, but what level is a graduate expected to be at? I've been developing with PHP for about 6 years now (professionaly for 9 months), and I know a fair amount, but where I work, the IT department consists of 2 developers and a designer, and I can't help but feel if I had attended an interview at a "proper web dev company", I would have been turned away (at the time, now I'm unsure), but at the same time, I feel like I am underpaid for my efforts. I just want to get an idea of "am I good enough to go elsewhere?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu2000 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 What should a junior web developer know? How to make me a sammich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiderwell Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 i would say be able to build pages that connect and manage tables in a database. perhaps only in procedural manner. and know where the kettle is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy-H Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 i would say be able to build pages that connect and manage tables in a database. perhaps only in procedural manner. and know where the kettle is Well I was a labourer for 10 months before I got a job programming, and I'm definitely capable of that. Think you could get me a job at your place? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinM1 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Well, what does your day normally consist of? What difficulty areas in your own skillset have you identified? What kind of projects do you work on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignace Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Junior Webdeveloper or Senior Webdeveloper has nothing to do with "I know shit" but instead is an inidication to a possible future employer how cheap or how expensive one is. For example some companies say that you are a Junior Webdeveloper when you have less than 5 years of professional experience, Medior from 5+ years and Senior from 10 to 15+ years of experience. It makes it all nice and easy for a company who want to hire someone but don't have the money to pay a senior. So some companies only consist of Junior Webdevelopers... Someone once told me his official title at the company he then worked was Junior Webdeveloper while he had 7+ years of experience.. Or how do you slave labour in the modern era.. Titles mean jack-shit, if you think you are a valuable asset, play your odds and go to your boss and tell him you want a raise... And 9 out of 10 you'll get it! Asking for a raise is also an indication that you have thought hard and long wether you deserve it, and since you had the balls to get in there and ask for it, your worth it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy-H Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 @Kevin It varies really, today, for example, I re-coded our insurance page from a template provided by the designer, finished developing a script that uses IMAP to grab csv attachments, formats the data and inserts it into a normalised database (using PDO/MySQL prepared statements), and uploads the emails to mailchimp, but since mailchimp only lets you send a campaign once I have started coding a simple function that builds HTML emails from a template and sends them to new leads (only a simple str_replace templating system). Oh, and coded the HTML email (with inline styles and tables :-\ ) @ignace Ok, I can't pretend to disagree with that lol So how much do you think is the minimum a PHP developer should be paid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 So how much do you think is the minimum a PHP developer should be paid? It really depends on what your boss expects you to do, where you live, how many years of experience, if you have a formal education, etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xylex Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 No one hires a junior web developer for what they know. Junior web developers get jobs based on what the hiring company thinks they can learn. To get an entry level job you should be able to demonstrate that you have a solid foundation in programming (know gang of 4, programming logic, OOP concepts, etc), have a good high level understanding of what scalability means, both on a software infrastructure side and a team side, be good at communication, and are eager to learn new stuff. A junior level candidate who has these skills, even without implementation experience, is far more valuable than someone who spent 6 years on the job implementing, but doing basic tasks without demonstrating growth capability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy-H Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 I wasn't saying I'm no better a programmer than I was 6 years ago, I'm far better than I was back then, and over the last 9 months (nearly 10) I've progressed a great deal, and demonstrated that I'm more than capable, competent and motivated enough to do my job and progress further, I think I just need to grow a pair and go ask for a pay rise, chances are I'll get it, and if I don't, I'll look somewhere that is willing to pay me what I deserve. Also, the development opportunities where I work aren't all that great, my boss has started to come round to the advantages of OO PHP, but I doubt we will ever use OOP regularly, and we definitely won't use a framework, I don't have a problem with that, that's how my boss likes to code, and he's the boss after all. I've taught myself a lot about programming whilst working there, but I can't help feel it would be a great advantage to have a strong senior web developer to work under. Anyway, looks like growing a pair is my only option. Wish me luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignace Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 To get an entry level job you should be able to demonstrate that you have a solid foundation in programming (know gang of 4, programming logic, OOP concepts, etc), have a good high level understanding of what scalability means, both on a software infrastructure side and a team side, be good at communication, and are eager to learn new stuff. <sarcasm>You forgot to mention that he also should have graduated from MIT with honors, and solved at least one mathematical mystery.</sarcasm> An entry level job is: -- What the employer expects: Knows HTML, CSS, JS, and PHP, and able to understand what the f*ck he wrote and able to debug it when it fails. What the employer gets: Has seen HTML, CSS, JS, and PHP somewhere in his career as a student. With some luck he can actually write a script without syntax errors. -- GoF, OOP, scalability, availability, .. is medior-ish. It's the medior's/senior's who teach all junior developers. We are the exceptions, gentlemen. We could write and debug as a junior developer, there are not many like us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy-H Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 In that case I would consider myself a decent junior web developer, I can code clean standardised HTML/CSS, jquery, AJAX, procedural PHP, debugging is not hard, I don't have to go to php.net that often, I know a fair amount about OOP and can use simple design patterns like MVC. I can create normalised databases without wasting an hour on a diagram, MySQL joins, I wrote a pretty complex mysql trigger and procedure, of course I get a few errors now and again but only typos, nothing major that takes a meaningful amount of time to fix. So I get paid 14k, how much should I ask for? I know the designer is on about 25. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignace Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Well you never gonna get a raise from 14 to 25k unless you are a business critical asset. Try 16k or if you are bold enough, try 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Of course if you're turned down for a raise, you can always look for another job. Knowing you have a job to fall back on, you can then play the "pay me more or I'll leave" card. If you're valuable to the company they won't let you go over a few K a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trq Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 In my experience, pay rises are closely tied to your attitude and commitment the job. I've had three large pay rises in the last 18 months. The first was solely because I got off my ass and found a better employer, the other two where because its plain to see that I love my job. I work back on a regular basis, often do extr work when I get home and am constantly coming up with ways to improve our workflow. I'm defenately not the best programmer in our shop, but a good attitude and enthusiasm will get you a ling way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Little Guy Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 You should be able to build a social network with nothing more than: - the php and MySQL manual - editor of choice - a web server Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 You should be able to build a social network with nothing more than: - the php and MySQL manual - editor of choice - a web server What about PHP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnoTheDev Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 As previously mentioned, job titles are utter political garbage. In most jobs (that I have been in anyway), the people who are supposedly of a higher level usually know less than you do (not saying that this is always the case). You could get a job as a senior developer at another company with the years of experience that you say you have and some junior will walk through the door and wipe the floor with you. A developer is a developer, whatever level they are at. If a company uses a particular style of programming or a specific framework and you know it inside out then you are at a senior level to that company. If you move to a company that uses a different framework or programming language or anything that you are unfmailiar with, then you are at a junior level to that company. I will say that at a senior level you should be in a position where you are teaching juniors and delegating tasks. In terms of a pay rise you should look at how valuable you are to the company. If you walked out the door would they struggle? If so you are in a good position to ask. You certainly aren't going to jump from 14k to 25k but you should get something inbetween. If the companies finances aren't great then you may get nothing more than a promise of a pay rise at which point you should consider moving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiderwell Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 my role pretty much covers what you described you can do, and I'm on 18K I think they must appreciate my input as I handed in my notice due to relocating, as i wasnt making enough money due to a long commute, and after many attempts to get 1-2 days a week working from home they wanted me in the office with weak arguments. They turned around and want me to work from home 24/7 for the next 2 months at least now! I had to laugh at that. the money saved on fuel is like a £4k payrise! result! I think what i am trying to say is if they value you more than your current wage, they would likely keep you with a payrise if they agree with your suggestion. The process of having to get a new employee found and settled in is probably something they could do without too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy-H Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 Well I went into the financial director on Friday and asked for a rise, he said he appreciates that I've been hard-working and committed to my job and knows that I've been doing some work at home. He said I need to think about how much I want to ask for and he will bring it up in the next directors meeting, so he said he will get back to me tomorrow or Tuesday. I'm still not sure how much I should ask for, I know I need to ask for more than I actually want and would be happy at 18k but it's a long way from 14k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignace Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Go for 18k. If it's true that you are hard-working, and committed, plus you work in your spare time your even worth more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trq Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 How old are you Andy-H and where abouts do you live, 18k sounds ridiculous to me but it must just be where you live. The average wage where I'm from is close to 80k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinM1 Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 In the States, a full time entry level developer makes somewhere around $30k a year, at minimum (right out of school). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnoTheDev Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 How old are you Andy-H and where abouts do you live, 18k sounds ridiculous to me but it must just be where you live. The average wage where I'm from is close to 80k. He's 20 and lives in the UK (right next door to myself). I would say that is a low wage and is what I would expect a high school leaver of 17 or an apprentice to be earning. I would say £17k-£25k is probably about right for a junior dev. £25k-£50k for a senior. If you lived in the London area I would expect the salary to be around 10% higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy-H Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 How old are you Andy-H and where abouts do you live, 18k sounds ridiculous to me but it must just be where you live. The average wage where I'm from is close to 80k. That's 54k in GBP, that must be for a senior? lol If not I may be the next Brit to migrate to Australia, my Aunt already lives there, as Neil said, I'm 20 (21 in April) and live in Manchester, North-West England. http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/north%20west/junior%20web%20developer.do The data in the link above shows that average salary here is 21.5k and 90% are over 18k, talking to my friend on the way to work this morning, he doesn't think I'll get 18, but I guess I'll have to see what the directors say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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