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Crew-Portal

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LOL I'm sorry but that just seems so funny to me. PHP definitely isn't THAT picky rofl!

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I agree if you arent going to take the time to write good code then you maytas well go and code yourself some HTML for IE4

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I agree if you arent going to take the time to write good code then you maytas well go and code yourself some HTML for IE4

 

LOL! Funny S***!

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well... you can if you want it to be windows 3.1 compatable.

 

I wish pre was available back in html 1, then you could code an entire multi-platform and windows 1 compatible website out of <pre> LOL! </pre>

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And it would be completely useless...

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The whole issue here comes down to Microsoft. Period.

 

They want IE to be able to display horrific and proprietary code-bloated web pages made from office, front page or publisher. If you ever look at a web page coded in publisher, it is one of the most frightening things available in all technology ever created in the history of the world!  It takes over 200 lines of unrecognizable tag soup just to code a single link called "Home'.

 

And since they generate this crap, they need a browser that can figure it all out. But they KNOW if they were to make IE valid, they would lose the "finger-in-the-nose dweebs" who tells Word to "save as a web page" (then come here and ask for a website critique).

 

So. IE will render any junk code so long as it is in quirks mode. But these "web pages" will be useless in most real browsers - which perpetuates the use of IE because these people who now think they are actually creating web sites (and some of them have the nuts to actually advertise themselves as "web designer for hire") think it is because the OTHER browsers are broken.

 

I know exactly what I am going to see here whenever I the dreaded words in a new post subject says, "web page not working like it does in IE".

 

Oh, yeah, until Firefox first came out @ 2003, I was one of those who posted subjects like that. After being enlightened, I went out and bought a beginners book on css.

 

$29.95 for a clue ... hmmm, worth every penny.

 

 

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Yep. IE = internet on training wheels lol.

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I agree with every truthful word in your rant.  IE is kinda.. CRAP.

 

 

 

Although... Dreamweaver kind of got freakin PWNED by Expressions Web.

 

IT IS NOT A NEW FRONTPAGE.  It does NOT use FPSE

IT DOES NOT SUPPORT ANYTHING BELOW HTML 2.0

 

It automatically fills in css values and everything, a freakin noob could make a half decent PERFECTLY VALID page using expressions web

 

It even suggets "this tag is old, W3c says to use this tag instead"

 

and when you doing XHTML it tells you which tags will NOT self close and will mess up in older browsers

 

 

WITH EXPRESSION WEB you can test a page for compatabilty for browsers all the way back to IE2 and mozzila 1.

 

Expression web just took a shit on dreamweaver.

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I agree with every truthful word in your rant.  IE is kinda.. CRAP.

 

 

 

Although... Dreamweaver kind of got freakin PWNED by Expressions Web.

 

IT IS NOT A NEW FRONTPAGE.  It does NOT use FPSE

IT DOES NOT SUPPORT ANYTHING BELOW HTML 2.0

 

It automatically fills in css values and everything, a freakin noob could make a half decent PERFECTLY VALID page using expressions web

 

It even suggets "this tag is old, W3c says to use this tag instead"

 

and when you doing XHTML it tells you which tags will NOT self close and will mess up in older browsers

 

 

WITH EXPRESSION WEB you can test a page for compatabilty for browsers all the way back to IE2 and mozzila 1.

 

Expression web just took a shit on dreamweaver.

 

Although I never used Expression web, dreamweaver is good. If you need a program to tell you a tag is old than you better be reading and learning not taking a shit. Or read while taking one! LOL!

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Expression web, while significantly better then Frontpage, still can't really beat the power user features of Dreamweaver, like the Photoshop integration and the PHP syntax highlighting though.

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dude, give me one good reason why expression didnt take a shit on dreamweaver?

 

Expression doesnt just say your tags arent valid, it GIVES you the valid tag..

 

If you press "auto-revalidate" it takes all invalid tagas on an ENTIRE page and makes them valid, and it almost always keeps your document 100% the same as when it was invalid lol, no lost text cause of unclosed tags.

 

Expression web tells you if sttuff isnt closed in the right order too,.

 

so if you have <strong><span> then it will shit if you put </strong></span> cause that is the wrong order.

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Dreamweaver does that too, though; that's the thing. Arguably, Expression Web is just Microsoft playing catch-up again with products that were far behind the curve by putting out products that were slightly less far behind. I'll admit that Expression Web looks to be the best Microsoft product to date, but Dreamweaver still has the most features and has been doing what Expression is doing for a few versions now.

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What I find amazing about expression web (and why I haven't given it any serious thought whatsoever) is because their WEBSITE customer example web sites are nightmares of table based layout and tag soup.

 

Oh, and their css validation showed too many errors to count (while, granted, the html validated).

 

Now, I DO give it credit for being better than FP, but it still creates heavy weight markup pages.

 

I applaud the attempt, but am still quite dubious about it.

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You guys are not specifiacally tleling me why dreamwaever is better....

 

Dreamweaver is much harder to pirate *COUGH* I mean,. to buy.

 

Expression Web uses 21 MB LESS RAM when it is running with all panes open.  In dreamweaver the servers require the dreamweaver site manager or web/dav plugins, expresion web is happy with ftp.

 

Expression Web and Dreamweaver, when I ran them side by side on equal machines, Dreamweaver used 9% more CPU over 2 minutes of html validation and expression web took 3 seconds longer.

 

Both computers were validating the same file soup 2mb html file that had <html> at the end of the file :D

I don't know how more souped that could be... <head> was INSIDE <body> and the browser still read it fine.  (IE7 AND FF2)

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Okay, the difference is that DW is for the serious, experienced professional. It is not really for those who want a 100% WYSIWYG type editor. If one just creates pages using design view, it will indeed give bloated code.

 

It makes hand coding zip by. It provides color coded support for php functions, variables, etc. It offers good code de-bugging tools and, for me, who spends nearly 12 hours a day coding, its auto close tag tool and other tools like highlight and click tags, saves me hours in the long run.

 

Most of us who use DW (professionally) code in the "code view" and rarely "code" using design view.

 

It is not a toy for amateurs; it is the best editor for the serious web coder (be it html, xhtml or php).

 

And anyone who publishes their website from within an editor (using its integrated ftp) is foolish. Always use a third party ftp to be sure you replace only the files that you want to.

 

So, that's really the difference. It is NOT for those who are uncomfortable working in code view.

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I don't want to get into another heated debate. I never tried out expression web, but I will tell you why I stick with DW.

 

It is very simple to me. I open a page and look only at the code, click the tab for "design mode" check if anything looks screwed up and go on. Dreamweaver's html display is likeIE, so if there isn't too seriously wrong with it, it should work. It highlights code when you forget to close tags and the complete your tags thing helps so much, - as mentioned before.

 

Dreamweaver sucks when it comes to php. Although it can easily show plain html in a .php file, it lacks in outputting html that is hidden in php's "echo or print" statements. Still good though.

 

I'm sure expression is good. And I never bought DW, I'm stil running on the trial after 1.5 years. LOL!!!

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The heck? What are you talking about? Dreamweaver is FTP. As for reasons, there's quite a few:

- Heavy integration with the rest of Adobe CS3

- Tag auto-closing

- PHP, HTML, ASP, ASP.NET, ColdFusion, etc.

- Years of polishing and next to no instability (hasn't crashed on me yet)

- Basic page layouts to quickly get started

- New Spry features that offer basic AJAX features in what I've found to be a quick and easy manner

- Code snippets library (more useful then you'd think when you start going into heavy usage)

- Extensions for more or less everything if you look

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I read all yoru replies and yes ok I agree BUT

 

DW has autoclose,

 

EW (expression web) has autoclose, tag mis-order detection, closure detection and it tells you if a tag needs to be in a parent tag.

 

It is simply DW on trainging wheels and while DW is good for everything I HATE web/dav and the fact that every time I edit a page, it thinks im using its 'site' where it says 'you must have atleast one site' and apparently I cant edit pages standalone...

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So basically you guys are arguing about which application is the most idiot-proof (auto fixes the most problems you make)? What I'd like to know is which one is better for people who don't mess up.

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Actually, my argument is that I have yet to see a web site created with Expression that isn't tag soup, code heavy and table-based.

 

I take as much time (and pride) stream-lining my code as possible. My ultimate goal is to be as lean and tag free as possible.

 

So, show me a site created with EW that is clean and well coded and I will concede the point.

 

Editors should be tools that simply HELP you to craft a website properly ... not craft the whole thing for you based solely on how it LOOKS in a browser. How a website looks is only half of the story ... how quickly it loads, how it performs cross-browser and how search engine friendly it is takes up the other half.

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You mean there are actually editors now days (THAT COST MONEY) that generate tag soup? Ew wtf.. I guess I will just stick with notepad.. it has served me well so far ^_^

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I, personally, do not see the problem with tables, but in DW the tables tool is very apalling.  In DW I stay on the "Live Data" or "Code" views of my work, and hardly use design view.  In the past *and present* DW doesn't properly load SOME css, like when you double classify somehting say, "TH" is classified with TD as bold but it is also classified with text2 as center, DW will only listen to the bold in deisng view and may even DELETE the other parts of the css.

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I, personally, do not see the problem with tables, but in DW the tables tool is very apalling.  In DW I stay on the "Live Data" or "Code" views of my work, and hardly use design view.  In the past *and present* DW doesn't properly load SOME css, like when you double classify somehting say, "TH" is classified with TD as bold but it is also classified with text2 as center, DW will only listen to the bold in deisng view and may even DELETE the other parts of the css.

 

Although that is true, as a programmer you should know how something is supposed to look like and just load it up in firefox. F*** dreamweaver's design veiw. Its design view is crap, just like every other software.

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Its design view is crap, just like every other software.

 

The above posted speaks the truth...  ;D

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