PHP USE?

[tibberous]

I would love to know what everyone here has accomplished that puts them in a position to insult me - doesn't seem like anyone here is very profit focused.

 

But that's the point: you are profit focused, not code focused.  Like watching your favorite band going from producing art to starting to suck because they sold out, started focusing on making a buck instead of art. 

 

That's the thing - I like programming, but at the end of the day, it's my job. It isn't my art, or my hobby - it's what I do for money. If you guys want to go above-and-beyond, that's great, and hopefully you can find a client that appreciates and is willing to pay for quality. Generally though, people want stuff fast and cheap - a perfectionist attitude is just going to price you out of the market or hurt your hourly rate. Anyone can do something the "best way", but the real trick is delivering the best product you can with the given resources (time, money, people, ect) Even if your salary, projects still have deadlines. If you can't learn to make trade-offs, you risk getting laid off, or having to do work on your own time (provided your company is busy, of course. I've seen some pretty sweet 'webmaster' positions at big companies)

[.josh]

You do not need to cheat people to survive, is all I'm sayin'. 

[tibberous]

You do not need to cheat people to survive, is all I'm sayin'. 

 

Giving someone what they pay for isn't cheating them. If I go to McDonalds, and buy a hamburger, they didn't 'cheat' me. They gave me what they reasonably could for $1, while still making a profit. Did they give me best possible hamburger? No. There is a market for $1 hamburgers same as there is for $50 hamburgers.

 

If someone has $1,000 and wants an ecommerce site, you can either:

- Not take the job, and he'll probably get ripped off on elance

- Take the job. Make him a perfect site. Ignore the fact you end up making $3.25 an hour

- Throw up zen cart and tweak it for a couple hours

 

Do you/have you freelanced?

[KevinM1]

If someone has $1,000 and wants an ecommerce site, you can either:

- Not take the job, and he'll probably get ripped off on elance

- Take the job. Make him a perfect site. Ignore the fact you end up making $3.25 an hour

- Throw up zen cart and tweak it for a couple hours

 

I freelance exclusively.  What I do is ask potential clients what they're looking for and what their budget is.  I then explain the feasible options they have available to them.  My #1 concern is educating potential clients about the process and what to expect.  I find that the more interested and involved a client is in the development of their site, the more likely they'll grant me leeway and the more likely they'll keep me on or hire me again in the future.

 

Even if they don't hire me, I'll give them advice on what to look for when interviewing/looking for other developers.  The last thing I want is for anyone to be swindled or taken advantage of, regardless of whether or not that person is a client of mine or not.

 

Freelancing is all about reputation.  I can afford to deny, or be denied projects that don't fit a certain level of comfort or personal integrity now if it means developing a sterling reputation to build on down the line.  You may or may not have that luxury, but I think it's something to strive for.

 

Above all else, I am honest with my clients.  No BS, no promising things I can't deliver on, and no going over budget unless I get approval from them.

[.josh]

If someone has $1,000 and wants an ecommerce site, you can either:

- Not take the job, and he'll probably get ripped off on elance

- Take the job. Make him a perfect site. Ignore the fact you end up making $3.25 an hour

- Throw up zen cart and tweak it for a couple hours

 

I freelance exclusively.  What I do is ask potential clients what they're looking for and what their budget is.  I then explain the feasible options they have available to them.  My #1 concern is educating potential clients about the process and what to expect.  I find that the more interested and involved a client is in the development of their site, the more likely they'll grant me leeway and the more likely they'll keep me on or hire me again in the future.

 

Even if they don't hire me, I'll give them advice on what to look for when interviewing/looking for other developers.  The last thing I want is for anyone to be swindled or taken advantage of, regardless of whether or not that person is a client of mine or not.

 

Freelancing is all about reputation.  I can afford to deny, or be denied projects that don't fit a certain level of comfort or personal integrity now if it means developing a sterling reputation to build on down the line.  You may or may not have that luxury, but I think it's something to strive for.

 

Above all else, I am honest with my clients.  No BS, no promising things I can't deliver on, and no going over budget unless I get approval from them.

 

 

And if you are using resources like google, websites, books, etc.. as more than just a reference for a job, then you have no business making money off of that work in the first place.  Yes I know lots of people do it and the world still turns.  That doesn't make it right.

 

p.s. - yes, I do have a lot of freelance experience.  It eventually led to my current full time salaried position w/ a company.

[.josh]

You do not need to cheat people to survive, is all I'm sayin'. 

 

Giving someone what they pay for isn't cheating them. If I go to McDonalds, and buy a hamburger, they didn't 'cheat' me. They gave me what they reasonably could for $1, while still making a profit. Did they give me best possible hamburger? No. There is a market for $1 hamburgers same as there is for $50 hamburgers.

 

All I'm saying is you shouldn't make out a $1 burger like it's a $50 burger.  Plenty of customers only really need a skinned/customized 3rd party CMS.  I know plenty of people who make a full time living off of doing nothing but custom word press installs.  That's FINE, as long as you are honest with the customer about what they are getting and what you are charging them for. 

 

If someone has $1,000 and wants an ecommerce site, you can either:

- Not take the job, and he'll probably get ripped off on elance

 

While this may be true, that doesn't justify YOU ripping a client off.  "They get screwed no matter what, better the money in my pocket than someone else's" is, IMO, not ethical.  If you have no issue with that (and I know plenty of people who don't have issue with that) then whatever gets you off, as long as you understand that philosophy does not earn you respect in many circles or from many people.

 

- Take the job. Make him a perfect site. Ignore the fact you end up making $3.25 an hour

 

Then don't charge $1000 for a $5000 job.  I'm not suggesting you charge $1 for a $50 burger.  Being a freelancer is more than just being a programmer, it's running a business.  A 1-man business in most cases, but it is still a business. Running a business is more than just writing code.  It is about setting expectations, negotiating something that works for both sides, project management, account management, etc... if you want to make a real career out of freelancing, I highly suggest you invest in a few business courses. 

 

There's a reason why full fledged companies charge $100+/hr (my company charges $250/hr BASE, just for consulting).  Projects take more than just handing someone some code.  If you want to freelance, cut out the middleman "boss" and make more money for yourself, that's FINE, but you can't just ignore the other stuff that goes into completing a project than the code.  This is the primary reason prefab customizable CMS/Template systems exist in the first place.  It makes it easier for you to focus less on the code and more on the rest of your freelance business - and charging accordingly.

 

- Throw up zen cart and tweak it for a couple hours

 

And that's fine, if that is what you are advertising, and you are charging accordingly.

 

Do you/have you freelanced?

 

Yes.

[tibberous]

Alright - I think we basically agree. Maybe I came off bad - I just hate to see someone not get paid, or not get paid what the're worth. So many people start programming because they love it, follow every 'best practice' and 'web standard' because they want to be a great programmer, go above-and-beyond every project, and end up really getting taken advantage of. Programmers focus so much on writing code, but writing code is only half of what gets you paid.

 

I've never given anyone code that didn't work good, or didn't show up correctly in the main browsers - but I'm not going to do everything with xhtml strict div's and jquery either. In my book, that isn't ripping someone off.

[Alex]

You're still looking at the problem from only your perspective.

Programmers focus so much on writing code, but writing code is only half of what gets you paid.

You're coming off as if every programmer programs strictly for money. Just because that's your intention doesn't mean that it's everyone's.

 

Programming and programming for pay are two completely different concepts, and because the OP made no explicit nor implicit reference to making money with programming it's unfair to bring it up. The original question was a question from a programming perspective, and that alone doesn't permit you answer the way you did. There was no reference to making money whatsoever, so regardless of whether or not you think freelancing using "correct" standards is necessary is completely besides the point.

 

The fact is that the OP was asking a question from a programming perspective, and that has absolutely nothing to do with how much money you can make freelancing depending on which route you take.