corbin Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 zhangy, I was implying that you should keep the gov happy, but not because I think it's the right thing to do. What if they find out and for some reason care quite a bit? You could be the next person to disappear for 10 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 CV, aren't you supporting completely agentic behaviour here? I don't know, am I? Seems to me like you're suggesting we should always obey the rules regardless of our opinions and moral standards. Admittedly humans are pretty good at this sort of behaviour, but it hasn't exactly led us to nice places. If that's the definition of agentic behavior, then no, I don't necessarily support that. But then again, sometimes I do. Life is a bit more complex than that, and things should be judged on a case by case basis, imo. In the context of this discussion, I admit that I somewhat misunderstood the OP. I thought he was some random Joe website owner outside of china, hence the "going to a friend's house" analogy. But it seems that he is in fact, a resident of china. So a better analogy would be if he was living at home under his parents' roof and they are enforcing house rules and he can't just walk away, because he lives there. So...since he is indeed being forced to live by those rules, then I do (somewhat) sympathize. My reason for saying 'somewhat' can best be summed up with what akitchin and corbin said: .. i hardly think your site being blocked is more akin to murder than it is to a transgression of etiquette. zhangy, I was implying that you should keep the gov happy, but not because I think it's the right thing to do. What if they find out and for some reason care quite a bit? You could be the next person to disappear for 10 years. But then, I do hastily add on to that that I'm not a resident of china, never been, probably never will be or ever will go to china, so the OP is in a much better position to accurately gauge living conditions there. On the other hand...seeing as how virtually all of my country's debt is to China, it's not entirely unreasonable to imagine them as our future overlords, so maybe I will indeed find out what it's like to walk in your shoes one day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbin Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 What an interesting thread this is.... Simple technical question has brought up all kinds of moral/philosophical questions lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerRobot Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 CV, aren't you supporting completely agentic behaviour here? I don't know, am I? Seems to me like you're suggesting we should always obey the rules regardless of our opinions and moral standards. Admittedly humans are pretty good at this sort of behaviour, but it hasn't exactly led us to nice places. If that's the definition of agentic behavior, then no, I don't necessarily support that. But then again, sometimes I do. Life is a bit more complex than that, and things should be judged on a case by case basis, imo. Agentic behaviour is basically where humans become 'agents'. They no longer take self-responsibility for their actions; rather they obey authority figures regardless of what they're being asked to do. When in this state of mind, humans may well do things their own morals and opinions wouldn't normally allow and don't generally feel any sense of guilt or remorse. I guess it's summed up best as being the "I was only doing what I was told to do" excuse. Some pretty interesting psychological studies; like Migram's or Hofling's obedient nurses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 mmm...then no, I don't support that. I subscribe to the idea that you are responsible for your own actions. I think my opinions might have been confused with that by the parallel running thought of what corbin pretty much said: mess with fire and you might get burned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerRobot Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 mmm...then no, I don't support that. I subscribe to the idea that you are responsible for your own actions. I think my opinions might have been confused with that by the parallel running thought of what corbin pretty much said: mess with fire and you might get burned. I agree, though someone might need to put that fire out at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamez Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 China is top of the world with their economy, so they know what they are doing, and just because you are in the middle of it, does not give you a reason to complain. (run on ) Ya I live in America, and we Americans get what we want. I am sorry you live in a strict environment, but you do not have any reason in the world to break the rules, so get over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbin Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Lamez, here in America, we don't go to jail for questioning the government. I do not think people should ever have to live under a government that they did not choose to live under. Also, just because an economy is good doesn't mean a government is good for its people. Just because he's in the middle of it he has no reason to complain? So it's his fault he lives in China. Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamez Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Lamez, here in America, we don't go to jail for questioning the government. I do not think people should ever have to live under a government that they did not choose to live under. Also, just because an economy is good doesn't mean a government is good for its people. Just because he's in the middle of it he has no reason to complain? So it's his fault he lives in China. Wow. sure if you want to look at my post in that perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I do not think people should ever have to live under a government that they did not choose to live under. unfortunately doing something about it is not easy. You can hope that some other country/countries (coughamericacoughcough) decides your government is terrorist and needs to go down. Or you can move. If you're even allowed to in the first place. And even if you are, it's still not that easy to just pick up and move to some other country. You might have history, family/friends, culture, traditions, family business or land, etc.. list goes on and on. China is top of the world with their economy, so they know what they are doing, and just because you are in the middle of it, does not give you a reason to complain. (run on ) Ya I live in America, and we Americans get what we want. I am sorry you live in a strict environment, but you do not have any reason in the world to break the rules, so get over it. obey the government, no questions asked, eh? Kind of funny, coming from an american. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel0 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 China is top of the world with their economy, so they know what they are doing, and just because you are in the middle of it, does not give you a reason to complain. (run on ) Ya I live in America, and we Americans get what we want. I am sorry you live in a strict environment, but you do not have any reason in the world to break the rules, so get over it. obey the government, no questions asked, eh? Kind of funny, coming from an american. Isn't that exactly what you said earlier? That you need to go by the "house rules"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerRobot Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 You can hope that some other country/countries (coughamericacoughcough) decides your government is terrorist and needs to go down. And that's only an option if you happen to have serious oil reserves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbin Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I do not think people should ever have to live under a government that they did not choose to live under. unfortunately doing something about it is not easy. You can hope that some other country/countries (coughamericacoughcough) decides your government is terrorist and needs to go down. Or you can move. If you're even allowed to in the first place. And even if you are, it's still not that easy to just pick up and move to some other country. You might have history, family/friends, culture, traditions, family business or land, etc.. list goes on and on. I never said it was easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Isn't that exactly what you said earlier? That you need to go by the "house rules"... I did say that earlier, but I was under the impression he wasn't a resident of that country. I'm all for questioning the rules, even if it's my friend's rules. And I'm even pro-breaking them if I'm being forced to live by them (if I feel they are somehow morally wrong, or maybe if they are just stupid. Depends on the severity of the 'moral' infraction vs. severity of the punishment for breaking them). I relented and restated on that count 2 posts ago. You can hope that some other country/countries (coughamericacoughcough) decides your government is terrorist and needs to go down. And that's only an option if you happen to have serious oil reserves. Haha true LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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