Zurev Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Oh yes, it's that thread, the thread where I get other peoples feelings on a degree in web design being of little or no importance. So I've been working with PHP/MySQL for a while now, I would consider myself fairly experienced, I've worked on large projects and even succumb to learning MVC frameworks, however definitely not advanced as a lot of the people I see on forums. I never took a formal course until this past fall, had to take the official "Server Side Scripting: PHP" course. Which is what got me into programming again, and I realized after taking this course, and after seeing a lot of threads on these and other boards, people aren't learning much from these courses. Obviously that isn't to go for all schools or all students, but I mean seriously, how many times have I seen a thread of someone asking to help them write a script where they set 3 variables, coincidentally they're x y and z, and they need to do math with them. To the ones who do actually learn things, and learn it well. Unfortunately, unless they're into it after school hours, most likely they won't learn much real world application since the schools set a curriculum, and stick to it. I personally have had to debate teachers on the use of OOP in projects, since they thought "though there are advantages to OOP, there are a lot of disadvantages". Courses in CSS, the professor wasn't aware of what CSS3 was or how to implement it. As I said, these are just the impressions I'm getting, surely it's possible there are a lot of good schools out there and perhaps a lot of good curriculum. However, avoiding the pitfall of "ur skool sux", without revealing where I go to college, I assure you it's a reputable school that does have a concentration in Web Development. Though I will say, when applying for an internship I was told they even had applicants from my very same college, and none were on the same page as I was. I am not saying that to brag, but to show, if I hadn't learned anything before I took the courses, or outside of them, I most likely wouldn't be able to do the job. It seems as if current colleges aren't preparing web developers for their real world needs. However, the amount of schools that specialize in web design are scare, it's usually at best an IT/Web Services major. Since again, it's not really necessary to have a degree in order to develop.... Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Little Guy Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I am assuming you went to a 4 year college. You don't lean to program at a 4 year, just theory, and a lot of bull shit like that. At my current work they don't want to hire a 4 year college student because they don't know as much since they didn't learn a particular language. Basically they don't have the experience they need to perform the job. (my opinions are thrown in there too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anti-Moronic Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 My thoughts on this are I can't wait until more employers wise up and actually EXCLUDE certain candidates based on where they obtained their degree. It is absolutely shocking that we have people asking questions who are taking a degree in 'web design' or 'php' who are being taught techniques used 10 years ago! No emphasis on security, some still using php4 and relying on register_globals. Using tables for layout, inline css..these are tiny things but imagine how many more 'tiny things' add up to create a crash course on how NOT to be competent at ______. They should be named "how not to do _______". Like, I got a degree in "how not to do php" and I've not been able to get a job for 6 years! Ugh..it's makes me feel sick. I'd only ever do a formal course after I've had chance to review and validate the material. My brother is starting in computer science within the next two years and I've already told him to forget about learning web development at college, teach yourself and do software engineering instead. I could probably talk for hours about this. Really annoys me, because I would be pis*ed if I'd spent w/e on a degree only to realize I know NOTHING and in fact would be considered a bad programmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zurev Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 My thoughts on this are I can't wait until more employers wise up and actually EXCLUDE certain candidates based on where they obtained their degree. It is absolutely shocking that we have people asking questions who are taking a degree in 'web design' or 'php' who are being taught techniques used 10 years ago! No emphasis on security, some still using php4 and relying on register_globals. Using tables for layout, inline css..these are tiny things but imagine how many more 'tiny things' add up to create a crash course on how NOT to be competent at ______. They should be named "how not to do _______". Like, I got a degree in "how not to do php" and I've not been able to get a job for 6 years! Ugh..it's makes me feel sick. I'd only ever do a formal course after I've had chance to review and validate the material. My brother is starting in computer science within the next two years and I've already told him to forget about learning web development at college, teach yourself and do software engineering instead. I could probably talk for hours about this. Really annoys me, because I would be pis*ed if I'd spent w/e on a degree only to realize I know NOTHING and in fact would be considered a bad programmer. Glad to see some people agree with me. The tables layout thing is funny because in one of my courses the final project was to make a website using css or a table layout, I tried explaining that tables were for tabular data and not to form entire webpages just to get thrown some garbage at me. Jokes on them, this is an example of one of the final projects: http://content.screencast.com/users/DeviousDan/folders/Jing/media/7ffbf000-b6c2-4aac-bba3-ffc4581a6af1/2011-01-08_1848.png Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Little Guy Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Is it wrong if the teacher/instructor asks one of his/her students if what he/she just said was correct on multiple subjects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anti-Moronic Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Is it wrong if the teacher/instructor asks one of his/her students if what he/she just said was correct on multiple subjects? You might be able to make your point a little better if you're straight up about it. Could you rephrase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I still see getting a degree from college isn't that you know what you're talking about, but instead showing that you can actually put in the dedication & finish a project. Once you get your masters/PhD, then you can really strut your stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignace Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 My thoughts on this are I can't wait until more employers wise up and actually EXCLUDE certain candidates based on where they obtained their degree. I disagree. You can't always choose where you go to college and these people deserve the same fair chance as you did. I still see getting a degree from college isn't that you know what you're talking about, but instead showing that you can actually put in the dedication & finish a project. Once you get your masters/PhD, then you can really strut your stuff. I concur. The degree is a guarantee towards your employer (and yourself, if you are not keen on staying current). http://content.screencast.com/users/DeviousDan/folders/Jing/media/7ffbf000-b6c2-4aac-bba3-ffc4581a6af1/2011-01-08_1848.png Showing off examples do not make your point any stronger. A college teaches you the basics and assumes the future and the company you work for will shape you. They give you the paper, but it's you who eventually paint the masterpiece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zurev Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 http://content.screencast.com/users/DeviousDan/folders/Jing/media/7ffbf000-b6c2-4aac-bba3-ffc4581a6af1/2011-01-08_1848.png Showing off examples do not make your point any stronger. A college teaches you the basics and assumes the future and the company you work for will shape you. They give you the paper, but it's you who eventually paint the masterpiece. When every single example of the final projects are on the same ground as that, and the professor hand-picked these to be on his website of examples as they were some of the better ones he had through the years. Especially when it's a tech-oriented school. (Though I didn't mention that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anti-Moronic Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 My thoughts on this are I can't wait until more employers wise up and actually EXCLUDE certain candidates based on where they obtained their degree. I disagree. You can't always choose where you go to college and these people deserve the same fair chance as you did. I still see getting a degree from college isn't that you know what you're talking about, but instead showing that you can actually put in the dedication & finish a project. Once you get your masters/PhD, then you can really strut your stuff. I concur. The degree is a guarantee towards your employer (and yourself, if you are not keen on staying current). http://content.screencast.com/users/DeviousDan/folders/Jing/media/7ffbf000-b6c2-4aac-bba3-ffc4581a6af1/2011-01-08_1848.png Showing off examples do not make your point any stronger. A college teaches you the basics and assumes the future and the company you work for will shape you. They give you the paper, but it's you who eventually paint the masterpiece. Fair points. However, say we are a bunch of employers right now. Would it not make business sense to not just ensure candidates have the specified qualifications but also that the basis of those qualifications is 'sound'? It's no secret some of these degrees are utter garbage and actually will help you to become a bad programmer/developer. ..and from a students point of view I don't want even the opportunity to learn bad information and be told it is good information. These colleges should either teach things correctly or not teach them at all. They have that responsibility. I will say though excluding candidates based on where they got their degree is a bit much. That was an exaggeration. Who knows what they learned during or after their degree and whether they could pick it apart themselves if it was in fact flawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignace Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I understand your point I've cursed at it myself in college when the teacher went all high-tech with his ... globals ... And setters/getters for each and every class variable because that's what encapsulation means, right? Be realistic, all employers want A-grade employees but they'll usually settle for far less because well .. it turned out he already worked at Google. Their is a serious demand of programmers and each year that demand grows so to make sure they won't be paying programmers like rock-stars they even settle for the office clerk down the hall .. he once talked to a programmer .. These colleges should either teach things correctly or not teach them at all. They taught me wrong, like I showed ^ up there ^ but I turned out alright, didn't I? ... FORTRAN will rule the world ... However, say we are a bunch of employers right now. Would it not make business sense to not just ensure candidates have the specified qualifications but also that the basis of those qualifications is 'sound'? Yes and for that you pay 80K+ per year (plus expenses). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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