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Should you use a framework?

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Yes and yes.

 

the question really should be, why wouldn't you use a framework?

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Yes and yes.

 

the question really should be, why wouldn't you use a framework?

 

I'm currently not using one.  Frameworks tend to bloated with a whole bunch of garbage you don't need.

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I built my own bespoke MVC framework,  not to reinvent the wheel but to learn the benifits of using such a framework. It gave me a much better understanding of how to approach coding using solid design patterns and principles.

 

And i do agree with you that some frameworks can seem over bloated. I have worked on a few zend applications, and although I highly reccomend the framework I have found it frustratingly over complicated sometimes.

I use my own framework all the time now and find I can build an application / site twice as fast compared to no framework. With the use of naming conventions, structure and a solid methodology it makes life so much easier. And easily scalable

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I built my own bespoke MVC framework,  not to reinvent the wheel but to learn the benifits of using such a framework. It gave me a much better understanding of how to approach coding using solid design patterns and principles.

 

And i do agree with you that some frameworks can seem over bloated. I have worked on a few zend applications, and although I highly reccomend the framework I have found it frustratingly over complicated sometimes.

I use my own framework all the time now and find I can build an application / site twice as fast compared to no framework. With the use of naming conventions, structure and a solid methodology it makes life so much easier. And easily scalable

 

I've never used an MVC framework although I probably should learn it.  Any suggestions on how to learn it without having to jump into bloated frameworks?

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I read Pro Zend Framework CMS: Building a full CMS using Advanced Aspects of the Zend Framework [Paperback]. which encompassed most of the mvc principles

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This could be a troll-like question, but given your admitted inexperience with frameworks I'm interested in your answer.

 

What does bloated mean to you?  When is a framework useful (or feature rich) and when is it bloated, where is the line drawn?

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This could be a troll-like question, but given your admitted inexperience with frameworks I'm interested in your answer.

 

What does bloated mean to you?  When is a framework useful (or feature rich) and when is it bloated, where is the line drawn?

 

From my perspective, if it has code that I don't use then it is bloated. 

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I think you can take many approaches to finding a framework that you might get into then. 

 

  • The first is to simply find a framework that is lightweight or minimalist enough to suit your programming demeanour, there are plenty around.  Agile Toolkit and Simple PHP Framework come to mind off the top of my mind. 
     
  • The second approach you might take is utilizing only the parts of larger projects you need.  A great many frameworks are loosely coupled and do not explicitly rely on other components in the framework. 
     
  • Perhaps a third avenue available to you is to make use of a project like PEAR, again utilizing only the classes/modules you need. 
     
  • Rasmus Lerdorf  would probably suggest you to go the no-PHP Framework approach. 
     
  • Lastly would be the option to write your own, build up your own toolkit refine and refactor it make it the sharpest tool you have.
     

 

Give yourself some experience with frameworks, I would think most people interested in them try more than few.  I had been perfectly happy using PEAR for years before I tried CodeIgniter which I disliked, so I tried another and another.  You can learn for yourself whether its worth it or not to make use of a particular framework.

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This could be a troll-like question, but given your admitted inexperience with frameworks I'm interested in your answer.

 

What does bloated mean to you?  When is a framework useful (or feature rich) and when is it bloated, where is the line drawn?

 

From my perspective, if it has code that I don't use then it is bloated.

 

Yes, but bloated has a definition. It isn't opinion.

 

Simple fact is: if you don't use a framework you're wasting time and losing money. If you build your own framework, unless it is for commercial reasons, you're learning, bu wasting time, and losing money. ON top of that, don't just walk into projects thinking you can use your own framework. Big clients understand the value in using a well known framework: pool of developers who are instantly qualified to make amendments.

 

If you want less bloat, use a loosely coupled framework. Most modern frameworks are like this now - Zend Framework, Symfony2 as examples. Whatever you do, at least learn a framework :) I can have a blog built with admin capabilities, user registration, everything within 30 minutes by using a framework because I already have the module to plugin to that framework.

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yes.., its more simple than traditional coding in php because some of libraries that you need is in thier

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