living with Linux

[truegilly]

Hi everybody, 

 

ive recently stated a web development job and the PC i have been assigned has windows Vista installed. At home i use win XP 64 which in my opinion is good, its fast and reliable. there are two other guys i work with who live and breath Linux, well Gentoo anyway to the point of where they have refused to use any machine with windows installed. They work from their own laptops with Gentoo installed.

 

The machine i use is a standard dell, not the fastest of computers but certainly not slow. Anyway after 2 month of using windows Vista i must admit that i f***ing hate it, its so slow and caters far to much for the noobie user.

Everything about it is annoying, its slow, its graphics and effects are poor and in nearly all aspect not required, and the start menu has been made less usable adding more frustration.

The part that makes me laugh the most is when you open an .exe, the whole screen goes dark just as if your attempting a fatality on Mortal Kombat and then a box appears asking you permission to run the file.

 

Microsoft are soon going to stop supplying updates to XP and i certainly dont want to upgrade to Vista, so i thinking of going down the Linux route, I.e Ubuntu. The guys @ work think its an excellent idea but i need to know more about it and what are the pros and cons in comparison to windows XP.

 

They have tried to convince me to install Gentoo, but what puts me off was the fact that they said it would take about 2 months just to get to grips with it.

 

can someone please reply with some suggestions and a list of pros and cons ??

 

thanks

 

Truegilly 

[trq]

They have tried to convince me to install Gentoo, but what puts me off was the fact that they said it would take about 2 months just to get to grips with it.

 

That statement seems a little misleading to me though Ive been a Gentoo user myself for the past 3 years or so. Gentoo is actually a very simply laid out GNU/Linux distro. You will probably have some hiccups with the install, but once thats done, its a good clean system. The only real downside is that any programs you wish to install need to be compiled from source... these things take time.

 

Anyway... while I've never used Ubuntu I understand its a great distro for the Linux newcomer. I use Debian (Ubuntu is built from Debian) on a few machines and it is another well thought out distro so I would assume Ubuntu is much the same.

 

If your a developer, this means you shouldn't mind getting your hands a little dirty. One of the biggest benefits to Linux is its openness, and I don't just mean the fact its open source. All programs are configured via simple text files. Once you understand what is where and how it all pulls together it truly is an extremely customizable OS. There are literally thousands of toys to play with that simply don't exist in a windows environment. Bash (the default shell on most Linux distros) for one is a powerful interface to your system as well as a rather easy to learn scripting language. This allows you to fine tune your environment to no end. Allot of tasks can be automated, you can create your own commands and customise existing commands using aliases. Kinda hard to explain in a simple post, but it truly is a hands on system.

 

As for downsides... I really can't say there are too many. I'm not a gamer, but I should imagine there would be issues there. There's also a few issues in relation to video card support but these things can be worked around. Linux itself has great support for allot of hardware, however some hardware companies are not so open when it comes to sharing the specs to there stuff. This makes things a little more difficult than it need be. I shouldn't go on, because I could make these issues out to be worse than they actually are.

 

Working with a few Gentoo guys is IMO a great opportunity to get into Linux. Gentoo is one of the distros that forces you to learn allot about how things fit together, so these guys should have no problems and may actually enjoy helping you out.

[php_tom]

I resisted using Linux for a while, but eventually installed it on a partition of my laptop's HD. I choose Ubuntu 6 because a friend recommended it. I was (and am) very impressed! Ubuntu supported all my laptop hardware out-of-the-box (touchpad, audio, video, even hardware-buttons) except my broadcom wireless card. But I even got that to work after some googling.

 

So I really recommend Ubuntu. Now I have used some other linuxes like CentOS, RedHat, and Gentoo, but I think Ubuntu is best. It has plug-and-play support for just about everything, and installing software is much easier with apt-get (instead of having to make install everything!).

 

Right now I am dual-booting Ubuntu and WinXP.

[the_oliver]

I have had very simmilar experiences with Vista!  I woul agree with thorpe's statment that it shouldnt take you anything like that long to get use to Gentoo or Ubuntu.  Personaly im a fan of CentOS, but thats just a preffrence thing.

 

For development i actualy use a Mac.  Its not windows, but has sligltly less compatability isues when it come to some apps.  (not sure if thats an option for you)  The partition argument that php_tom puts forwords is a good one.  As the majority of web users and on a windows PC it is always good to be able to test on a windows enviroment.  One of the realy nice this about linux is that if you google a problem your having you will find loads of realy good coments and tutorials, from real people, not just badly writen microsoft manuals! 

 

You sound like you like to customise your mashine, so linux sounds like the way forwords!  On the other hand, there are a load of realy helpful, out of the box apps that need no configuration. 

 

I often find that prople are woried about compatability between OS's for things like swapping files, or networking with windows mashines.  In reality this is rairly a problem any more. . . . So not many cons realy!

[AV1611]

I have a different spin on making the swith to linux. 

 

Start with an "easier" linux distro then change when you get some "traction".

 

Hands down, Fedora is the easiest to cut your teeth on. (MANY people are gonna disagree with that, but It's my opinion)

Second to that, OpenSuSE is a great starter, as it's VERY powerful and has a "windows" appeal. (Did Vista copy OpenSuSE or vice versa???)

 

I do not like Ubuntu because I find it's not easy to figure out.  And they DON'T allow you to log in as ROOT - Which makes setting up a new system VERY difficult on someone who doesn't understand linux to begin with.  Logging in as ROOT takes a whole layer of conplexity away. (Don't even flame me for that...I know the risks, but I'm trying to get a new user to learn incrementally, besides the risks are NO greater than windows where every user is an admin by default)

 

Gentoo and slackware may be the most "geek" distros of linux, and for that reason I suggest a NEW linux user to not mess with them for at least 6 months.  I started with Gentoo and what happened was I couldn't understand the howto's let alone what I was doing.  I got frustrated and quit for a while.   

 

Fedora get's a lot of bad press, but on the desktop it's still my preferred system, and on my Laptop I like OpenSuSE best.  (BTW 1 week until OpenSuSE 10.3 comes out  :o )

 

Wine is coming along... but .NET is still a big problem, so you prolly need to keep you workstation dual boot... just in case.  Many people use VMWare to make a virtual windows install... and that's a good solution as long as you don't do graphic intensive stuff in windows (i.e. Games, etc.)  I suggest you simply install WinXP SP2 and Linux Dual Boot. 

 

My workstation has Fedora 7 (Preferred), XP(Just in case), and Vista(I gotta learn it ).  It runs dual monitors, and everything works fine.  I also mount the xp volume when in Linux.  I don't know if I can mount the Vista volume or now, I'm kinda scared to try...

 

Well, that's my 2 cents.

[effigy]

I do not like Ubuntu...they DON'T allow you to log in as ROOT...Logging in as ROOT takes a whole layer of conplexity away.

 

Either give root a password or sudo sh.

 

Just got my new Dell Ubuntu machine yesterday. So far so good

[leonglass]

My first experience of Linux was Gentoo and I failed miserably. I gave up on the install and tried Debian and that went well. I used Debian for a few months and then started trying other distros as well. Over the years have tried quite a few but in the end went back to my first choice, Gentoo, and this time succeeded. Gentoo is a brilliant distro but if you are totally new to Linux it may well cause you problems. Try one of the more user friendly distros (Ubuntu, Fedora, Suse, pclinux) for a while. Once you have the hang of it definitely give Gentoo a go as I think you will like it.

[AV1611]

Just got my new Dell Ubuntu machine yesterday. So far so good

Can you get a laptop or just desktop?

[effigy]

At the moment they offer one laptop.

[AV1611]

Wow, that ain't cheep.

 

I bought a Toshiba Qosmia

It has 6600 with 128 onboard memory

17 wide monitor

2 gigs ram

intel wifi (Linux Supported)

a TON of stuff

It came with decked out mediacenter 95

I dualboot it with OpenSuSE and get glxgears at 18000 and run linux 1440x900 with nvidia drivers.

 

I love it, but it's too big for working site to site, so I want another 14.1 for that. 

 

BTW: Can anyone tell me where to find a PCI WIFI card that works with Linux RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX???

 

Thanks.

[Reisswolf]

Gentoo is a nice distribution, but there are points to consider before choosing it over other distributions.  My personal favourite is Fedora.

 

First:  more and more people are coming to the realisation that compiling from source provides only minimal benefits over using binaries.  I have both Fedora (64-bit) and Gentoo on my system, both well configured, with a minimum number of necessary services enabled, and there is no perceptible difference in speed between the two.

 

Second:  the Fedora project is stronger and better directed than the Gentoo project.  The recent, well-publicised spats between the Gentoo developers will inevitably hurt the project.  On the other hand, the strong, corporate backing of the Fedora project by Red Hat ensures a more coherent vision of the project.  Red Hat engineers contribute more lines of code to the Linux kernel than pretty much any other organisation.  I think that is a good indicator of the long-term strength of the Fedora project.

 

If the frequency of new releases is not a problem, I would recommend Fedora over any other distribution.  But if you require that your distribution be supported for a long time, I would recommend CentOS, Scientific Linux, Debian, the long-term Ubuntu releases, etc.  Don't go for Slackware unless you are ready to go a lot of work and resolve dependencies on your own.

 

All the distributions mentioned here--Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, Gentoo, Slackware, etc.--are good.  Your ultimate choice will depend on how much work you are willing to do to maintain the distribution.  For me, it is better to have a distribution that does not require a long time to set up and maintain, because I need to spend more time coding.  So Fedora is just the perfect distribution for me.

 

[dnoland]

I am not all that experienced with linux... but I am (was) in EXACTLY the same boat as you.  The disgust I feel when I see vista's warently unnecessary waste of my system resources is almost beyond description.  XP is fine for IE using hosewives... but people who do more than check email and play solitaire should use a real OS.

 

Here are the pro's of linux (as I see them).

 

• Whatever people say IT IS HARDER to use / set up than windows (in my experience).  This is not a con.  You may (will) need to do some command line stuff, but after a while you will find out that is a good (great) thing.  With linux you trade simplicity for power in many (most, certainly not all) circumstances.  I would not trade bash for a strictly graphical interface... because their is simply no way that a graphical interface can have that kind of power (yes it does OWN that sad little dos imitation they are calling command prompt).  But don' t let me exaggerate... if you can google, you can linux.  I doubt any linux OS will immediately find / work with your wifi card.  If you want multiple monitors (a must for me), well that takes between 30 seconds and 30 minutes depending on your own skill and the distro you choose.
   
  
• 
  Linux (in my experience) is secure.  No need to buy an anti virus software every year or whatever.  Whatever saves me money is definitely in the pro category.
   
  
• Linux (by and large) is free.  Usually the OS is free, and so is virtually all of the software you use.  This has many profound implications.  I did not really understand the scope of the free software available until I tried it.  I am still stunned.  This is almost definitely the best part of linux.
   
  
• Linux is stable (again, in my experience).  No random errors on startup, and it actually shuts down when I tell it to.  No waves of random applications that improperly uninstall and glitch whenever I boot up / power down.  I never am presented with stupid error boxes asking if I would like to "send an error report" after mathcad crashes for no reason, corrupting 83 pages of mathematics (yeah... still bitter about that).
   
  
• Many people feel that Microsoft may be, what is the word, EVIL.  They are not wrong.
  
• 
  Finally, I think that both ext3 and reiserFS are much better file systems than NTFS.  Ubuntu does not even ship with a defrag tool.  This sounded stupid to me at first, but so far I have had no need at all to defrag my hard discs.  Even through large influxes of data, nearly full hard discs, multiple uninstalls and installs of dozens of different programs... I have not really noticed any performance loss.  Boot times stay constant... none of this waiting for 10 minutes for my machine to become functional after I log on.  Granted that does not really happen in windows if you take care of the machine and keep the HD less than 70% full, and NEVER resize an NTFS partition that is over 70% full.  But this never happens on linux even if you do all of those things. 
  

 

Cons of linux

 

• Many applications can not easily be made to function on linux.  As others have said .NET is an issue.  Wine simply will not help you with that.  Their is a project called mono that is designed to correct this... but I have a feeling that it is going to be quite a while before this is a solid solution.
  
• 
  Learning time - If you are highly computer dependent to do what you do (sounds like you are), it may be extremely inconvenient to learn a whole new OS with a whole new set of programs.  Dual boot helps... but many people who do this never seem to break free of windows.  That is both good and bad... they still get the few benefits of windows, but it takes some measure of discipline to choose linux at the prompt when you turn on your computer every morning.  Many people (in my experience) who dual boot, never really get into linux because they just take the path of least resistance and boot XP.
   
  
• Gaming does not seem to mix well with linux... but I left that behind more or less anyway.  But still... for many people, especially those likely to even consider linux, this is a serious issue.  Gotta respect that, even if it does not really apply to me.
   
  

 

That is it... seriously... all of the serious problems I can think of at the moment. 

 

As for which distro to choose...

Back when I first switched to linux (the same day that vista RC2 hit the web) several of my friends had something of a linux install fest.  We tried several linux distros and all basically came to the conclusion that Ubuntu was the best choice for us.  This is not me dissing Mepis, Fedora, suse, CentOS, Debian, and certinally not gentoo (seems to me that I will eventually switch to gentoo).  I just think that Ubuntu is relatively simple (I LOVE apt), and has an excellent community to support it (the wikis will help you do just about anything).  Ubuntu is super easy to install with the live cd, and runs well on both my desktop and my laptop.  It will almost certinally be easier to learn Ubuntu vs Gentoo, but I don't think it should take you two months to learn either of them (to the point of proficiency).

 

All in all, I conclude that almost any linux distro is vastly superior to XP, and seeing as how I can barely keep my lunch through a discussion of vista we can skip that.  So my final advice would be this.  If possible, dual boot Ubuntu with XP for a while.  Eventually you will most likely find that you prefer Ubuntu, then again... my gentoo download just finished, so I am going to go tinker with that now.

[Reisswolf]

my gentoo download just finished, so I am going to go tinker with that now.

I think that in your post you forgot to mention this most important point.  Together with stability, robustness, security, etc., another very important reason to switch to Linux is just that line quoted above:  it is fun!--fun to tinker with different tools and different distributions, and possible to do because we don't have to pa hundreds of dollars each time we want to try something different. 

[AV1611]

I Love Fedora, but I wanted to make sure someone stated that OpenSUSE is a GREAT distro to cut your teeth on.  It's more GUI than Commandline which will help the M$ person feel more at home.  Fedora is the singe best distro for all around use IMHO.

 

I have not used CentOS, maybe it's time for me to try it out, and I've heard good thing about PCLinuxOS...BUT, many distros do not have good "repository" support.  OpenSUSE & Fedora have GREAT ones THAT ARE EASY for the Noob to get working.  The others have good to, this is just based on my own experience over the past two years.

 

I personally do not like Ubuntu on any level... I just don't.  Others love it, and it is very popular... but not with servers guys, just desktop guys.

[neylitalo]

I personally do not like Ubuntu on any level... I just don't.  Others love it, and it is very popular... but not with servers guys, just desktop guys.

 

I would use the Ubuntu Server edition for a server if I wasn't able to use Debian - it's basically the same thing, with a relaxed testing cycle. I'm sure it's just a matter of preference. (It seems that most questions about "which is the best <insert whatever here>", related to Linux, can be answered with "It's a matter of preference." )

[AV1611]

I am the world's leading authority on my opinion...

 

;D

[lupld]

        Just as a note...

    UAC (The black screen that comes up when you start some programs, more or less, when a program tries to start another program) can be shut off.. and to be honest.. if you can't figure that out by looking it up online, or by yourself.. you aren't ready for linux...

    Windows also provides a lot of support that linux doesn't. ex. You don't have to compile source or use an installer (like yast) to download and compile it for you. And when it comes to free software, almost everything in sourceforge is available for linux, windows, and sometimes mac and dos.

    I like linux too, but I couldn't do half of what I work on without my windows os... Too many compatability issues to use linux as my main system.

[AV1611]

I'm curious of why type of work you do?

 

I only have issues when a specific program just doesn't exist outside of windows.  (Which M$ makes sure happens...)