natural advice about frameworks

[Ninjakreborn]

I am looking for some inspiration.  My framework has been built, I started it at version 0.1  And I have upgraded it over time, it's almost 2.0
I have my config folder, functions, and directory structure.  People program different, I programmed it and I am having a very good time with it, and upgrading it.  I even created things inside my framework I call programs.  I created a administration program, that automatically builds an admin system, and has the features
* allows people to edit there admin info
* allows them to add/edit/delete other admins
I worked this into my framework so all I have to do is copy one folder from /master/programs/admin
move that admin folder to the root, and upload the sql file and it's ready to go, the entire admin skeleton system is done.  THe thing I like is over time I can build onto it, make the design better, I upgrade the basic version every couple of times I use it, and start adding more features to start with.  I have done a lot, I am very happy with my current framework.  Now I am going to start adding some new stuff
* pagination program (I have a script I created I keep replicating off an old site I built, I want to turn it into a program, so I can just easily start up pagination when needed, by just including one file, and passing it a few variables), this is going to be easy and fun next time I get some spare time
* getting javascript library
* getting ajax library

I am personally a do-it yourself kind of guy, more like along the lines of redbullmarky by what I have read, I don't like doing everything custom, but his outlook is he likes doing it, not re-inventing the wheel but you get the idea.

I built my own framework so far, and I am very happy with it, if I had of used third party I would not have felt the same.  Now I want to use an ajax, or javascript library built into it.  So I can have an easier time doing ajax, I was wondering, shoudl I take the time to slowly build my own, or would this be a good situation to go ahead and use something that was already created.

Also what else can I do to make my framework better, and work better.  It works great, and I want to expand it, while keeping it light weight, and eventually open it as an open source project, but that's after, about another 20 versions or so. 
Advice, appreciated.

[steelmanronald06]

have you used anyone else's frameworks?  I am working on one, but I put it on hold in order to learn CakePHP.  That way I will have a better understanding of frameworks in general. I suggest picking up a few frameworks, learn to use them, then learn how they work, then create your own.

[Ninjakreborn]

That's the thing, in this situation I already created my own.  I already have a basic framework I created.  It's just I am at the point of expanding it.  Good idea about testing out there's, as redbullmarky also suggested, I have downloaded a few, I will go ahead and take the time to play with them, as for the ajax framework specifically.  I am wanted to extend my framework to have some ajax in it's functionality, should I use a third party library of ajax, or come up with my own.

[steelmanronald06]

A framework is your own work....so make your own library.

[redbullmarky]

You're right by saying i'm a DIY sort of guy, mainly cos I just like to be in control and enjoy getting my hands dirty. But I never had anything that i'd remotely call a framework (more a collection of bits and pieces with no uniform naming conventions or structure) until I looked at CodeIgniter and CakePHP (@Ronald, but at busi too - take a look at codeigniter too. If you're using/learning cake, it's not too far off the beaten track - similar structure, etc. It's very simple to use, and whilst it stands in its own stead, I'd almost call it a 'Beginners introduction to Cake').

You need to know what you need and the way you prefer working before you can tackle a framework, otherwise you'll wind up having to make too many changes that would warrant a total rewrite - not just of the framework, but anything based on it as you move on. My framework now? Halfway between Cake and CodeIgniter (minus the bits I didnt like, plus the bits I did), coupled with a few little bits I liked after watching the Rails screencasts. Mine currently has NO ajax support, but that's cause I dont need it as a general thing, but take a look at prototype/scriptaculous JS libraries (easy to find via google, havent got links to hand) - they're what I like to use if necessary.

As for waiting 20 versions to release it to the open source - dont bother. Get your idea together, work out your end goal and how you'd ultimately like it to work, and release it now. Maybe you'll get the little bit of help/input you need before you really make it too huge to do anything with.

Cheers

[steelmanronald06]

It might also help to learn MVC, Class Diagrams, and Application Design a bit more in depth before tackling a framework.

[Ninjakreborn]

After all this time, I am revisiting some stuff.  This point caught my attention, it looks like I passed up a lot of countless advice.

[quote]You're right by saying i'm a DIY sort of guy, mainly cos I just like to be in control and enjoy getting my hands dirty. But I never had anything that i'd remotely call a framework (more a collection of bits and pieces with no uniform naming conventions or structure) until I looked at CodeIgniter and CakePHP (@Ronald, but at busi too - take a look at codeigniter too. If you're using/learning cake, it's not too far off the beaten track - similar structure, etc. It's very simple to use, and whilst it stands in its own stead, I'd almost call it a 'Beginners introduction to Cake').

You need to know what you need and the way you prefer working before you can tackle a framework, otherwise you'll wind up having to make too many changes that would warrant a total rewrite - not just of the framework, but anything based on it as you move on. My framework now? Halfway between Cake and CodeIgniter (minus the bits I didnt like, plus the bits I did), coupled with a few little bits I liked after watching the Rails screencasts. Mine currently has NO ajax support, but that's cause I dont need it as a general thing, but take a look at prototype/scriptaculous JS libraries (easy to find via google, havent got links to hand) - they're what I like to use if necessary.

As for waiting 20 versions to release it to the open source - dont bother. Get your idea together, work out your end goal and how you'd ultimately like it to work, and release it now. Maybe you'll get the little bit of help/input you need before you really make it too huge to do anything with.

Cheers[/quote]
That's what I did, I went ahead and released it, and called it personal program assistant.
The thing I want is to just be able to share what I have with other people.
I am thinking about a few things, all I want is
* something I can pull around from project to project and help me handle web development better.
I have an idea of lot's of programs I want to custom build over time, I just want a place to keep them together, and carry them around with me, and re-use as needed.
What I wanted to ask below, may end up changing my entire career, I have really been getting into the idea of OOP lately, but I am still not sure about a few things.

I have even gone so far as to start the process, I almost started rewriting some of my functions in OOP.  However I am currently scared about a few things, and wondernig about others

In order, here are my concerns
* If I do redo my entire program in object oriented programming.  Or atleast start to do it, like changing the way I handle variables, changing the way it works overall.  I am afraid (so many things I have heard about OOP), that it will work in only php 5, and not 4.  For instance the project management system I use, active collab is php 5.  Since I work on different stuff all the time, a lot of my clients are limited server's and only have access to php 4 at the highest version level.  What can I do when creating my assisitant (That I carry around and re-use), to make it helpful, powerful but still able to be supported by php 4-5, or should I go procedural as long as I need php 4 support as well.

* I want to step everything up a step, I want to really start studying again, on the side from working, and start making things a lot better.  I have a dead version of my assistant right now, I am taking from project to project, while I completely overhaul, and basically completely rewrite my system itself itself.  I want to do a lot of things with my.  There are some things I want to do for sure before i re-release the new version
* Build in an auto-installer, so it installs itself
* redo all my functions, and variable handling to Object Oriented Programming
* Create a config file for my admin program, and rewrite it to look better, and function better. 
* Have the ability to where when I create a program, adn decide I will reuse it, I want to add it to my assistant, I want to be able to easily create an installer for each one.  So I can have 2 control panels.  The control panel for just my assistant, allows me to control everything related to the assistant itself through the panel.
* I want to be able to for instance my current admin panel program inside the assistant, it creates an account for you, then allows you to be able to add/edit/delete admins right from the start.  I am building in a simple project manager, link manager, and contact manager.  However I want to be able to easily install the admin program when I build a new site that requires an admin panel, but be able to choose which of those features are on it, and which are not.

So many things I want to do but I am trying to rush it. I just want to sit back, have fun, and redo my assistant like I want it.  I do however want it to retain support for php 4 and 5, as well as most if note very type of server, I will need to work with. This is the most important thing.

[redbullmarky]

as blogs are the order of the day and the new "hello world" for these new frameworks, why dont you try it out?
seriously. watch the rails screencasts. watch the codeigniter and cake screencasts. then download a copy of Cake, and write a blog with it. seriously dude, once you've got to grips with what's going on, you'll very quickly toss your current stuff in the bin and realise a whole new way of doing things EXTREMELY quickly.
only then, once you've gotten experience of USING a framework and understand the MVC thing as steelmanronald point out should you be writing your own. I've written an entire, live and hugely busy site without a single SQL query using my own framework that's heavily based on Cake/CI as i've explained, but mainly based on the way Cake handles the database.

i may sound a little contradictory, one minute encouraging and the next not, but first things first. writing a framework is fun and rewarding, but very tedious if you dont know exactly what you want, where to start, how you like working, etc. Spend a day or two with Cake getting to fully understand it, and it'll shave several weeks off how long your own attempt will take to write.

[448191]

I'm lazy, so I'll be blunt and ask you: what's the question?

[Ninjakreborn]

I got the answer from red, mostly looking for inspiration, I found myself watching the first tutorials on codeigniter earlier. I will go aehad and download them to my server monday and build hte test blog, and some other stuff, and see if I can start getting into that method of doing things.
Thank you for the advice.

[448191]

Ah, ok. So this one is solved then?  :D