perthmetro Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 BOGUS FREELANCER!! I accepted a someone to do this work for me from a post on this site but immediately after I forwarded the upfront payment, I never heard from them again. They have not responded to any of my emails nor delivered any work when they said they would. Beware of this 'freelancer' everyone. Unfortunately I have been conned and lost money. Pete Here are the details of the con artist: Luis Espinoza laffin@phreaker.net laffintoo@gmail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomfmason Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 There are several reasons as to why this could have happened. First, was your budget reasonable? By that I mean that a lot of clients don't seem to understand that there is alot of work involved in web development and try to get projects completed with next to no budget. A good example would be a project that I bid on, from the freelance board. This guy wanted 2-4 weeks of work for something like $100. With a budget and timeline like that, there is no way that *any* reputable developer will even come close to touching it. In fact, the only people that would be willing to take it are people that are going to rip the client off. Here is a list of things that you can do to help prevent this in the future: Make sure your budget and time line are realistic Ask the developer for references and check every one of them Check the developer's portfolio and verify that they did work on the sites listed If using paypal, have the developer send you a request for the money but only pay with your credit card. Paypal doesn't offer buyer or seller protection for any "Services" but if you get ripped off you could go through your credit card company Good luck, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perthmetro Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 We both agreed on a price and on a delivery date. He didn't deliver 1) the item 2) on time or 3) at all. He has not responded to any of my emails since I sent payment. There was never any attempt from him to extend the deadline, or ask for more money. Where I come from if I agree to a deal, I keep it no matter how much it's worth (if someone can't be trusted with a $50 they definitely can't be trusted with $50,000). Honesty doesn't have a price where I come from. Let's not get confused here... the person stole my money. this I should have done....! If using paypal, have the developer send you a request for the money but only pay with your credit card. Paypal doesn't offer buyer or seller protection for any "Services" but if you get ripped off you could go through your credit card company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomfmason Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 We both agreed on a price and on a delivery date. I don't think you are understanding what I am saying.. Good developers will very rarely touch a project with a small budget or rather a project with a budget that does not allow for the developer to make a profit. This guy most likely just told you what you wanted to hear so that he could get the money. Projects with a budget that is to low will see a lot of that. When I say "Projects with a budget that is to low" I mean projects where the work is greater than the gain for the developer. For example, say you have a project that should take 4 weeks, you can't have a budget of $100 or something equally ridiculous. Can you expect a good to decent developer to work for something like $25/week? I don't know of anywhere in the world were someone would call that a decent wage. If you have a small budget but a big project you should wait and save your money until you can afford a good developer. Also, some development companies offer financing(I used to) for clients that couldn't really afford a large project up front but could pay over time. I am not saying that you are wrong here but rather that you did make a few mistakes and you should learn from them. Maybe next time you should post in this board and ask us what we think a decent budget for the needed project would be. Try and remember that web development is like everything else - You get what you pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perthmetro Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 I understand exactly what you are saying and disagree with you if you are suggesting that a low budget somehow justifies for less honestly/stealing. I believe you don't understand (or in the least don't acknowledge) my point about honesty being THE issue here. You don't buy honesty, no matter how much is involved. A profitless budget doesn't allow for theft by anyone. The old saying "you get what you pay for" is completely out of touch and irrelevant when it comes to competitive forces (The saying is often said by those who charge too much in an attempt to justify their fees). There's another saying... "you should give what you agreed to give". If we start taking the sides of thieves and not condemning their grubby little tactics to steal money then it will only happen more. We should be pushing the point of integrity and honesty. At the end of the day if an agreement was put in place then until the other party wants to challenge it, the deal should be seen as such. The issue is not and never is about the amount of money when it comes to honesty and theft. I think what you should be saying is "a fool and his money are soon parted". I fully admit I should have taken extra measures... but thats what you get for being an honest, trusting person. I have learnt, not to try to seek cheap bargains, but to put in measures that will see those bargains be carried through. If someone wants to charge me peanuts that's their right as it is for someone to charge me heaps. So... how much would you suggest for my job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenway Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Accusations aside, there's no place for "honest & trusting" without the proper business context. There are legal contracts for business transactions for a reason... and not because people may be dishonest. That being said, "you get what you pay for" ALWAYS applies, even with competition -- there are upper & lower limits to everyone's pricing scheme for different reasons. If I charge you $1000 for something that someone else bids $100 for, you should be suspcious of one of the bids, but not always the higher one! The "going rate" for certain items represents a true value, not price gouging as everyone suspects. There is no "supply and demand" in the typical sense. It may not be apparent to the naive client when the code is delivered, or even when the project is live... but trust me, there's a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perthmetro Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 Accusations aside, there's no place for "honest & trusting" without the proper business context. That is where you've lost some credibility in my eyes. I have a 'proper' small business and my honesty is a key part of that. The day we throw away honesty and human goodness (in favour of written contracts and the like) in any stream of life is the day we allow the bad ones take control, and leave it to us to play catch up all the time. Honesty and trust must always be on the top of all things considered in this world, coding jobs not excluded. "That being said, "you get what you pay for" ALWAYS applies, even with competition" I agree, if I paid for a job then that's what i should get... what i paid for, end of story. other wise where do we draw the cut off line between bargain and dodgy thief price? Answer: we can't, it's impossible to, so lets just go back to honesty instead. Unfortunately coding is one of those jobs where you can easily con a non-techy out of lots of money, so in a way the hunt for low prices and failures like mine has been caused by these high cost thieves as much as the low cost thieves. I know I can get $2000 for a website that someone else would not charge more than $500 for... it's very easy to do. But... honest stops me, as it should stop the low priced thieves too. Lets not allow these mongrels to not accept responsibility for their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neylitalo Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I understand exactly what you are saying and disagree with you if you are suggesting that a low budget somehow justifies for less honestly/stealing. You're still not getting the point. A low budget makes you a prime target for a scam, since you will be easily ready to part with your money. Accusations aside, there's no place for "honest & trusting" without the proper business context. I have a 'proper' small business and my honesty is a key part of that. The day we throw away honesty and human goodness (in favour of written contracts and the like) in any stream of life is the day we allow the bad ones take control, and leave it to us to play catch up all the time. Honesty and trust must always be on the top of all things considered in this world, coding jobs not excluded. Unfortunately, as you have found out, honesty and trust alone get you very little in the business world. Of course you have to be honest, and of course you have to trust people (to a point), but you still have to protect yourself by clearly defining the terms of the business arrangement. Written contracts rarely have anything to do with people deciding to take the money and run - it's most often the technicalities that get brought into question. "That being said, "you get what you pay for" ALWAYS applies, even with competition" I agree, if I paid for a job then that's what i should get... what i paid for, end of story. other wise where do we draw the cut off line between bargain and dodgy thief price? Answer: we can't, it's impossible to, so lets just go back to honesty instead. Unfortunately coding is one of those jobs where you can easily con a non-techy out of lots of money, so in a way the hunt for low prices and failures like mine has been caused by these high cost thieves as much as the low cost thieves. I know I can get $2000 for a website that someone else would not charge more than $500 for... it's very easy to do. But... honest stops me, as it should stop the low priced thieves too. Lets not allow these mongrels to not accept responsibility for their actions. He meant that if you pay them $500 with the expectation of getting a full-blown e-store next week, you have not found a gold mine. You have found a scammer, or a really shoddy programmer, and you need to keep looking until you find someone with realistic rates. You need to understand the market before you try to participate. And unfortunately, there is nothing we can do. We are not the ones who made the business deal, so we aren't even in the picture. The administrators are discussing a course of action amongst themselves, but our control only extends to this forum, so our effectiveness in your case is limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perthmetro Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 You're still not getting the point Yes I am. Unfortunately, as you have found out, honesty and trust alone get you very little in the business world Ummm, no? I rely on my reputation as an honest person. I have found out that if i'm not honest I wont get business. He meant... I can only say this until i'm blue in the face... we agreed on a job for a price, end of story And unfortunately, there is nothing we can do. When did i ask you or anyone to do anything for me? Postscript: I made a complaint to PayPal, they sent my complaint to him, and he refunded my money. With a very vague explanation. I wondered what would have happened to the money had I not made a fuss? None the less... more the wiser, and none the poorer. Any know a good (cheap) coder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effigy Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 An honest transaction requires mutual honesty. You can be as pure as you want, but are you going to loan your car to a perfect stranger? Probably not, because your honesty does not return the car, but their honesty does. I'm all about honesty and trust, but I do understand the need for written agreements. Lastly, I doubt you'll find a good coder that is cheap. It's an active service, not a deal at a secondhand shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomfmason Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Any know a good (cheap) coder? LOL!... Good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stooney Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 "Good Cheap Coder". You're looking at getting ripped off again. Look for a 'Coder with reasonable rates' is what I would say. Nobody wants to be labeled as 'the cheap guy'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelmanronald06 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Posts such as these do not need to be brought to the PHPFreaks boards. The Freelance board is available for the private use, contracted or not, of each individual user. PHPFreaks does not endorse its members, or any project found within the Freelance board. Each member takes on jobs, and takes on workers, at their own risk, and it is up to each user to ensure that a written, binding contract is signed before any work or money is exchanged. As such, you can say over and over that you agreed on a price for a job, but at the end of the day you did not have a written and signed contract, thus you will be unable to get your money back unless the said user decides to give it back. Sadly, this happens more often than you would think, but without that contract you've just got to cut your loses and move on. That being said, this topic is locked, and any future topics in regards to being scammed through the Freelance will also be locked. There is nothing PHPFreaks can do to get your money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenway Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I know it's locked, but with steelmanronald06's assumed permission, I'll add one final comment: Postscript: I made a complaint to PayPal, they sent my complaint to him, and he refunded my money. With a very vague explanation. I wondered what would have happened to the money had I not made a fuss? This is an excellent example of someone airing out their dirty laundry for all to see... and moreover, proof that these "issues" (which PHPFreaks has clearly and repeated disavowed any responsibility for) can be quickly & quietly resolved in private. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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