Opera converts unite!

[ober]

*snicker*

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20061019/tc_pcworld/127309

FF, according to this article, is not even outpacing IE anymore.  Disgusting.

[Daniel0]

[quote]Firefox 2 offers no radical changes compared with version 1.5[/quote]
It doesn't have to, it was already great and Microsoft only release a new version of IE every 5 years or so. What is mostly wrong with Internet Explorer is that Trident (it's layout engine) do not support the web standards properly like the other browsers. Besides, did you read the last paragraph: [quote]Of the two rivals, [b]Firefox remains the better application[/b]. Since IE users will have to adjust to a new layout and interface anyway, this might be a good time to give Firefox a try, then watch IE 8 play catch-up again in five years.[/quote]

[ober]

Yeah... but how many people will read that entire article.  The first half of the article does nothing but bash FF for failing to raise the bar from 1.5 to 2.0.

[Daniel0]

I actually skipped to the end because I already knew about the new features. I have Firefox 2.0 installed on my Linux partition along with Firefox 1.5.0.7. On my WinXP partition I have FireFox 1.5.0.7 and IE6 and on my Vista partition I have Firefox 1.5.0.7 and IE7. I have tried them all and I still don't like IE7. The user interface has changed too much so it is harder to use.

[obsidian]

[quote author=ober link=topic=111912.msg454340#msg454340 date=1161264006]
FF, according to this article, is not even outpacing IE anymore.  Disgusting.
[/quote]

sorry, but it's been some time since i took yahoo news seriously. check out the most recent version of Information Week to get another opinion on the battle. here's their headline quote:
[quote]
Internet Explorer 7.0 takes on Firefox 2.0 in a face-off that's reminiscent of the browser battle of the '90s. This time, it's Microsoft's fight to lose.
[/quote]

as much as i hate to admit it, IE7 is growing on me. however, as this article points out, IE is just now tackling many of the features that FF and Opera have offered for years and have been perfecting.

my browser preferences come down to this:

Opera - excellent browser. for personal use, probably my browser of choice. however, i feel that all the additional "built-in" features overload the browser beyond what i care for.

FF - excellent browser. definitely my browser of choice for development. although features are added on as extensions, i can customize my firefox to be exactly what i want my browser to be [b]and no more[/b]. if i find needs for other features, i'll add them at that time.

ober, the only thing you've said that i don't agree with is your comment about [i]no other browser comes close to being standards compliant[/i]. while firefox has its quirks, overall, it is quite close to full compliance in rendering CSS and DOM elements.

suffice to say that i am an opera fan for my personal use... would that i only had more time for personal browsing ;)

[obsidian]

[quote author=Daniel0 link=topic=111912.msg454345#msg454345 date=1161264796]
and Microsoft only release a new version of IE every 5 years or so. What is mostly wrong with Internet Explorer is that Trident (it's layout engine) do not support the web standards properly like the other browsers.
[/quote]

that appears to be changing... read [url=http://www.redmondmag.com/columns/article.asp?editorialsid=1485]this month's issue of Redmond[/url], and you'll get some inside feel for how M$ is cranking on the next two revisions of IE already... with promises of CSS compliance (we'll see how that turns out).

don't get me wrong: it will take quite some time before i'm ready to make the change back to IE, but it looks like they're finally starting to feel the heat from the free browsers out there.

[neylitalo]

[quote author=obsidian link=topic=111912.msg454362#msg454362 date=1161265848]
it will take quite some time before i'm ready to make the change back to IE
[/quote]

I don't think I'm going to be using IE full-time any time soon... To get good support for Windows programs, you need Windows. Which I am not going to be switching to anytime soon.

[quote author=obsidian link=topic=111912.msg454362#msg454362 date=1161265848]
but it looks like they're finally starting to feel the heat from the free browsers out there.
[/quote]

And that's exactly what they're here for. Remember, the ultimate goal is to have a program that works, and works well. If Microsoft won't provide it, then the international community will. If you don't have to pay for it, so much the better, but if MS gives us programs that are efficient, usable, and actually worth using, I won't complain.

Maybe we're looking to a new height of competence on Microsoft's part, who knows?

[ober]

obsidian... you're playing with my words.  I didn't say "no other browser comes close to standards compliance".  I said Opera is standards compliant, and no other browser comes close to it's level.  Take the acid test for example.  No other browser even comes close to rendering it properly.  Unfortunately, they're sooo standards compliant it's almost to a fault.  Often pages that are coded poorly that would display properly in other browsers render poorly in Opera.  They actually have specific JS files that run on sites like my.yahoo.com that correct some of the errors.

If more browsers rendered things in accordance with the standard, maybe people would actually fix their sites.

I also don't trust the Yahoo news... most of it is sketchy and I mainly posted it on here to get a reaction.  I do still think FF is superior and I completely dislike the new IE interface.  I also won't be holding my breath for MS to comply to CSS standards.

[obsidian]

[quote author=ober link=topic=111912.msg454394#msg454394 date=1161267742]
obsidian... you're playing with my words.  I didn't say "no other browser comes close to standards compliance".  I said Opera is standards compliant, and no other browser comes close to it's level.
[/quote]

ok, i'll eat that one. i wasn't trying to play with words, i honestly thought that's what you were saying :P

thanks for the clarification :D

[Daniel0]

[quote author=ober link=topic=111912.msg454394#msg454394 date=1161267742]I also won't be holding my breath for MS to comply to CSS standards.[/quote]
No, you'd die. No one can hold their breath for years...

[Daniel0]

[quote=http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/ie7/about/features/default.mspx]The Internet Explorer 7 frame is reorganized to make it noticeably simpler, more streamlined, and less cluttered with unnecessary items. This maximizes the area of the screen devoted to the webpages that you want to see and makes performing the most common browsing tasks easy.[/quote] I don't quite agree. I find it more difficult to use.

[quote=http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/ie7/about/features/default.mspx]Improves the implementation of the XMLHTTP Request as a native Javascript object for rich AJAX-style applications. While Internet Explorer 6 handled XMLHTTP requests with an ActiveX control, Internet Explorer 7 exposes XMLHTTP natively. This improves syntactical compatibility across different browsers and allows clients to configure and customize a security policy of their choice without compromising key AJAX scenarios.[/quote] Well, that is good. Then we don't have to check if the XmlHttpRequest object exists, but then there is of course still those who don't upgrade and stick with IE6 >_<

[quote=http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/ie7/about/features/default.mspx]Addresses many of the major inconsistencies that can cause web developers problems when producing visually rich, interactive webpages. Improved support for CSS 2.1, including selectors and fixed positioning, allow web developers to create more powerful effects without the use of script. [...] Internet Explorer 7 is more compatible with top web features than ever before. Internet Explorer 7 will support many of the new standards on the web to make browsing the web a richer experience and easier to develop for.[/quote] Yeah we'll see...