.asp vs .php

[the_oliver]

Hi,

Whilst i am a php person i have been meeting more people resently who always insist on .asp and noticing more large sites using it.  Is there a resion for this?  Is it better for server side stuff?  I know nothing about it so thought id see if someone can fill me in!

Ta!

[ShogunWarrior]

It's up to you really. Take a look at the tutorials on W3Schools and see if you like the language.
I dislike it because it seems to go against seemingly obvious programming traditions. (They use [b]'[/b] single quotes as comments) However, everyone has their opinion and you may like the language.

[utexas_pjm]

Something to consider:

PHP runs on Apache or IIS which allows you to choose between Windows, *nix, and (cough) Mac  platforms.  ASP (natively) runs on Windows IIS only.

Best,

Patrick

[tauchai83]

ASP and PHP has their own advantage.. the only things for sure that separate it is due to fact that ASP software/server is NOT free while PHP is open source. Apache is availble for free and run across multiple OS...i feel that ppl who run ASP on their site now starting to migrate to ASP.NET, no more ASP. That's happen in my country. i don't know how's about ur country....PHP is much very like C-Programming which we learn in the very first lecture in ur college or Uni.

chai

[Nameless12]

both languages have flaws, there is a whole world beyond asp and php and asp and php may be popular but they are far from the best.

Why I say both languages have flaws what language does not?? Php and asp have more flaws and quirks than most I think. I have gotten used to them but If I went back in time I would of chosen a different language over php (python)

[the_oliver]

Thanks for all of that!  So there is no way to run a .asp sccript on an OS other then windows?  What is the diffrence between ASP and ASP.NET?  Which is the one you have to pay for?

(Thanks for all your comments).

[matto]

ASP will also run on *nix

[url=http://www.chilisoft.com/]http://www.chilisoft.com/[/url]

Sun have deployed this on some of their appliance servers.....

[.josh]

[quote author=ShogunWarrior link=topic=123286.msg509306#msg509306 date=1169336009]
I dislike it because it seems to go against seemingly obvious programming traditions. (They use [b]'[/b] single quotes as comments)
[/quote]

Ahem. I would just like to point out that the BASIC language has been using the single quote to signify comments at least as far back as I was knee high to a grasshopper; about 22 years ago.

[ShogunWarrior]

A very valid point, and I suppose it's just my opinion then that I immediately associate quotes with some sort of string.

[StrangeWill]

[quote author=utexas_pjm link=topic=123286.msg509356#msg509356 date=1169343941]
Something to consider:

PHP runs on Apache or IIS which allows you to choose between Windows, *nix, and (cough) Mac  platforms.  ASP (natively) runs on Windows IIS only.

Best,

Patrick
[/quote]

Actually there was an Apache build that will run ASP legacy. (.asp)


Anyway, I've programmed in both, started in ASP, I enjoyed it a lot, learned a lot, and made very nice applications with it.

Then I moved into the business of making websites for people. PHP hosting is cheaper. It's got a lot of quirks that bug me, but I live with them (don't us programmers feel that way with all languages?).

I moved into ASPX (.Net) and LOVED the event driven software they got, sadly this takes away a lot of flexibility to the system based on how you're SUPPOSE to write in .net (no HTML code, lots of objects).

I got some PHP under my belt because my friend knew it, he was quickly pissed that I'm doing OOP projects that he doesn't understand (I got most of my OOP background in .NET and Java).

Personally I use PHP because thats what is easiest to deploy in the "I need a website" market. We're talking about single people starting up businesses and such. If I was to write a massive piece of software for a company, I'd probably look into going back to .NET or learning JSP (I hear that stuff is powerful too!).

IMHO: It's about taste and what you need to get done, really thats what ALL computer languages are about (Ignore those idiots that must insist everything should be in C++, I'll write my small desktop apps in Visual Basic or C# thank you very much) it's about finding what you NEED, and then using the language that fits that need the best (because as you get more complicated languages it takes more time to get done, and run into more errors and debugging).


@Crayon: I wasn't around back in the BASIC days, but my Dad showed me some stuff he did, plus some code that came with BASIC showing sorting algorithms, that most PHP programmers don't know anything about, lots can be learned about improving your code by learning BASIC I'd say.

Hence: I'm taking Data Structures in Java this semester at the college. :)

[Philip]

I thought this was funny on the ASP vs PHP debate.

I was walking through Fry's (a big tech store) and they had 4 or 5 racks of bargain books. There had to have been at least 20-25 books on ASP, and not a single bargain book on PHP :P

[Nameless12]

that does not mean what you said about the ASP vs PHP Books does not means anything at all. The reason for this is a marketing strategy and has more to do with target audience than anything else plus the fact php is free easy and available means beginners are more likely to want to learn it.

Most content everywhere tv\books\movies\news\media usually targets stupid people it is rare when you find content targeting experts\intelligent people the reason is a numbers thing, if you market a product at beginners there is just a greater potential for potential customers than if you create a product targeted at experts\people that are experienced to some degree. 

If you like the media and the content it chooses to put out there, that is your choice and is not  my point. My point is that the reason for this has very little to do with what language is actually better with maybe an exception of the fact it is free and that is only because the fact its free makes it more available.

[obsidian]

I think the major difference between ASP.NET and PHP in the educational and corporate arenas (which I am part of the former) is that since ASP is Microsoft, you do indeed have more [i]official[/i] support for it. Sure, you have communities and people to hit up with questions about PHP, and IMHO, the PHP support is better for me on the individual level. However, I can fully understand why many higher level organizations opt for ASP.NET. For one thing, being able to run true C# compiled applications on a web server level takes the possibilities to the next level. [b]Most[/b] smaller companies and individuals will never have any need for anything beyond the OOP support that PHP5 supports. I have read rumors as well, though, that .NET servers are going to be able to compile PHP in addition to the other languages that it already supports.

[.josh]

@Nameless12: Sorry, but I can't agree with your logic there.  It sounds good on paper, but that's not what happens in reality. It goes against the principles of supply and demand.  The bottom line is that people sell a lot of what is in demand, at the highest price they can get away with, depending on how much a demand there is for it. 

It is true that companies will artificially reduce prices (like sales, etc..) in order to attract more people to buy things, but there is a certain line they will not cross.  And I would also like to mention that practically 100% of the time, when there is a "sale" somewhere, the company marks-[b]up[/b] the price from what they would normally sell it at, then sells it at the reduced "sale" price.  This gives the customer the illusion that they are getting a discount, when in fact, the company is still selling it at what they would have sold it for anyway. 

But when something goes on the "bargain" rack, having its price cut down by 30%+, that means there is no demand for it, so they are trying to at the very least spark enough interest in it to cover what [i]they[/i] paid for it, so as to not suffer complete loss.  This "interest" they are trying to spark is not some deep and meaningful "we are trying to get you to become a programmer/cook/sci-fi reader/whatever."  The only interest they are trying to spark in you is to compulsively buy it because you think you're getting a bargain.  Which on the one hand, you are, because it is indeed being sold for cheaper than you know they would normally sell it at. 

But as the other hand always turns out,  much like those orange and green plaid pants you bought in the wal-mart clearance aisle, that book will wind up in the closet, because you will soon find out the reality of the situation: It was on sale because nobody wants/likes it.  Now it doesn't seem so much like a bargain, now does it. 

The point is, if there is a whole lot of this product on sale, it more than likely means that someone [i]thought[/i] there would be a big demand, so they went ahead and bought a whole bunch of supply, in order to make a whole lot of money off the markup.  This whole "guess the next fad" thing sounds a lot like what you posted.  But it turned out to not be a big seller, and so in an act of desperation, they drastically reduce the price, even down to their own cost of purchase, in order to minimize loss. This is the part of your idea that's kind of like... "oops, crystal ball must have been on the fritz..."

Therefore, companies do not look at this "grander scheme" of "attracting more programmers" by trying to sell the "easier" programmer books, as you suggest.  Or any other "guess the next fad" tactic.  Most companies don't, anyways.  Certainly not some book store.  It is too much overhead cost to research that kind of stuff.  They simply look at their own sales numbers and base their prices off the current supply and demand, and try to make predictions based off that. 

Now, there [i]are[/i] people/organizations who exist that [b]do[/b] attempt to "create the next fad," but they don't work on the retail level, and that entire shelf of stuff marked down to peanuts is not an indication of their efforts.  I suppose if you wanted to play the opposite game, you could.  To a degree... that is, you can figure out what's [i]not[/i] going to be the next latest and greatest.

And everyone lived happily ever after.  The End.

[Nameless12]

My point was not about there being more of a demand for php books, there is because more non programmers start out with php over asp due to its availability.

There is more demand for php books because there are more beginners than experts. I am not sure if I explained wrong or if you read what I said the wrong way. The bottom line is the reasons for what is for on a book shelf have nothing to do with what language is better, not a damn thing.

[matto]

I see the debate continues......

[quote author=Nameless12 link=topic=123286.msg514502#msg514502 date=1169861557]
more non programmers start out with php over asp due to its availability.
[/quote]

That's a relatively bold statement don't you think?

Good work Crayon Violent....

[Nameless12]

that statement i said is so obviously true that I wont even both to defend it. It may be bold but it is true the statistics back me up on this.

[.josh]

I'll agree with that statement.  PHP is free, therefore more people flock to it. 

[obsidian]

I'll support that statement, too. Take a group of non-programmers, offer them LAMP or WAMP for free versus ASP, and I guarantee the majority will go for PHP. Now, with some of the tools M$ is offering for free, you can definitely get into .NET for free, but you'll have to pay to publish anything with it.

[.josh]

To clarify though,  I disagree with the notion that that makes PHP a "noob" programming language, where people would step up to "bigger and better" languages eventually.  It is not some simple, poor quality language. 

[StrangeWill]

[quote author=KingPhilip link=topic=123286.msg513168#msg513168 date=1169732457]
I thought this was funny on the ASP vs PHP debate.

I was walking through Fry's (a big tech store) and they had 4 or 5 racks of bargain books. There had to have been at least 20-25 books on ASP, and not a single bargain book on PHP :P
[/quote]
They're usually quite cheap in the first place, a bargain PHP book would be practically free. :P

Most ASP books I've picked up are in the $60 area, I've gotten PHP books for like $5-15 :P


Another point:

As I'm getting into software development, and am releasing my own CMS (well... you hire me to do a site, I use my CMS as the underlying engine to run your site so you can still manage it) I find PHP a lot better for that market, being as I'm dealing with people just starting their businesses and such.

But when I'm doing work for a company, and am hired for said company, it's usually been in ASP/ASP.NET

[Nameless12]

[quote author=Crayon Violent link=topic=123286.msg514809#msg514809 date=1169917711]
To clarify though,  I disagree with the notion that that makes PHP a "noob" programming language, where people would step up to "bigger and better" languages eventually.  It is not some simple, poor quality language. 
[/quote]

I didnt say php is a noob language just that the majority of people that use it are self taught and most of these self taught people are less likely to become experts. (i myself am self taught)

Php is a less mature language than many others though on a technical level as it is the new kid on the block and has many quicks and lacks namespaces but at the same time the lack of namespaces makes the language easier for beginners to grasp.

and yes 95% of servers run php4 5% run php5, what does that say to you? and last time i checked there were less than 2000 zend certified enginiers.

Beginners flock to php, that is a fact. This does not mean the language is useless or that there aren't any really good php programmers out there, just that beginners flock to php and so the experts are an extreme minority.

There is not a lot I can say to argue my case other than this so I wont continue to argue it. I do believe what I am saying can be proven by statistics as well because most of the other languages are taught in uni's and phpers are more likely to be self taught and learn via tutorials that are written by people closer to beginner\intermediate than expert level.

There is a reason business prefers to hire people that program in java or microsofts languages and why phpers tend to be freelancers.

[matto]

[quote]...PHP is free, therefore more people flock to it. [/quote]

I would say PHP is far easier to learn than ASP, that's why more people flock to it. I have developed many ASP applications over the years and it's never cost me anything. The cost is really on the host provider not the developer......

[neylitalo]

[quote author=Nameless12 link=topic=123286.msg515247#msg515247 date=1169961062]
There is a reason business prefers to hire people that program in java or microsofts languages and why phpers tend to be freelancers.
[/quote]

I'm not sure what the reason is that you're thinking of, but judging by the points you made, I'm willing to bet that there is a more popular, powerful reason.

PHP isn't very practical. It's designed to be a scripting language, a language that you can use to add some dynamic functionality to a website. It's relatively weak as an applicational language. Java, C, C++, and the other popular compiled and interpreted languages, however - those are practical languages. You can make MONEY with those. You can write a program in C and sell it. You cannot, however, make a website in PHP and sell it. There is very limited marketability for PHP. Oh, sure, it exists - I happen to work for a company that makes a considerable amount of money from its PHP-based services, and I am a PHP programmer. But you can't market an application written in PHP the same way you can market a program created in C++. That, my friend, I suspect is the main reason that companies choose to use Java or the Microsoft-endorsed languages.

You are correct - businesses prefer to hire Java or C programmers, and PHP programmers tend to be freelancers. But this doesn't indicate the skill level or experience of these languages' practitioners. It simply reflects the market for products developed in those languages.

[quote author=matto link=topic=123286.msg515253#msg515253 date=1169962225]

[quote]...PHP is free, therefore more people flock to it. [/quote]

I would say PHP is far easier to learn than ASP, that's why more people flock to it. I have developed many ASP applications over the years and it's never cost me anything. The cost is really on the host provider not the developer......
[/quote]

True, you don't have to pay to program in ASP - but if you want documentation, support, the MS IDE, and numerous other things beneficial to a beginning programmer, you're likely to have to pay for them. And you also "need" to have a Microsoft OS to serve those applications - I say "need" because you technically don't, but it could be argued that it's "less stable" or "less efficient" or what-have-you, to serve ASP or ASP .NET pages in a non-Windows environment.

[ShogunWarrior]

I think you probably have a point neylitalo, but it's futile to try and compare PHP with C++ or even Java.
The whole point is that if you are writing websites/web applications then you will choose PHP for its ease of use and because it was designed for the web.
If you are writing desktop applications - which is completely different - then you should choose a language like C/C++/Java which is meant for that purpose.

I use PHP for all my websites and my web applications so I am quite the PHP proponent but I also recognise that PHP is very erratically designed. The function names are very unstructured and there wasn't alot of thought put into keeping argument order consistent (across string funcitions for example).

I imagine this inconsistency, its open-source nature and because JSP/.NET are more "commercial" is why corporations choose lower level languages over PHP.