tibberous Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 The recession is what this country needs - prices are falling, gas is affordable, houses are affordable. We need to get rid all of the ridiculous amount of credit in our system, and the only way to do that is to let the banks collapse -- then when they are replaced by new banks they won't lend out stupidly large amounts of money and make the price of everything go up. A $200,000 house should really only cost about $50,000. If people had to save up, then buy a house, most wouldn't cost that. But now I can go take out $200,000 for 30 years - that's about half my life! Of course even then I won't own it, because by the time I pay off the house + interest, I'll need to mortgage the house to have spendable cash - so basically I rent a house, that was overpriced to begin with, until I died, at which point the lenders get my house... AND THAT IS WHAT THE GOVERNMENT WANTS! I say let the banks fail, because it will help the country in the long run - let the automotive industry fail because it's ineptly run - let the stock market crash because the value was all speculative to begin with. Credit drives up the cost of everything so high that, as long as the majority of people are given vast sums of credit, regular people can't afford anything without it - same for health insurance. If the only way people can buy houses is on credit, maybe there priced too high -- that isn't a problem, it's basic economics. I dunno... I voted for Obama, but I wanted Ron Paul... but mostly I wanted the war to go away, so maybe my taxes would go down... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomfmason Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 We might as well burn our own houses down. Not having anything and being homeless will make us tougher. Anything seem off with that logic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel0 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I don't hope you are managing anyone's economy because you obviously don't even know what money is. It doesn't matter whether a house costs $200k or $50k or $1 for that matter. A house is still worth a house obviously (I know there are different kinds of houses, but that's irrelevant in this context). It doesn't matter if there is an overall price drop, this just means that your currency will have higher value (purchasing power). The money itself isn't worth more than the material it's made of though. Its real value lies in its ability to be exchanged into goods. If it's decided that $1 is worth 1 house then it is so. If, however, its decided that you need another amount then it so instead. Money is thus an illusion. Let me explain why money is an illusion... Many years ago you traded goods for goods. Like for instance you have those pretty stones and if you give them to me then I'll give you my chicken. Fair enough, goods for goods. This was later found impractical and goldsmiths started crafting coins so you could easily trade. Even later the goldsmiths started offering that people could store all their coins in his vault such that they will not be robbed. Paper money in form of claim checks were then created because they were easier to handle. Have you for instance ever noticed how it explicitly states that on some modern bank notes? On the British bank notes, possibly American as well, you might for instance see: "Bank of England - I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of ten Pounds". Right, so far so good. The goldsmiths started lending money and charging interests for that. However, they also noticed that people never took out all their money at once, so they started lending more money than what was actually available. I.e. they created money out of nothing. This has carried on into modern day banking. If you take a loan on $10k then $10k is invented on the fly. They didn't exist before, but now they do. The amount of money a bank is allowed to lend out today is dependent on how much money they have actually got. I can't remember the exact ratio. This means that money is debt as there exist more debt than "money". It is thus completely impossible to pay out every single debt in the world. Now guess what happens when your bank closes... Seeing as your money didn't exist you get absolutely nothing. Your money is then lost, but not really, because you and nobody else, really had them. There is actually made a movie about this. "Money as debt" I believe it's called. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tibberous Posted November 25, 2008 Author Share Posted November 25, 2008 Well yes, I get that the physical money isn't worth anything, but it is nice to see the purchasing power go back up. I make the same amount if the economy is good or bad, but if the economy is good, my money is diluted by other peoples money, which isn't even really their money, its money they borrowed from banks. I can buy twice the gas I could a few months ago. Everyone is dropping prices - I don't see where there is a problem, at least not until my tax dollars get spent trying to fix something that isn't broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynew Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 The recession only became a recession because everyone started playing into it! It's sentiment in the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcombs_31 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 There is not a problem for your directly, but there is a problem for the hundreds of thousands of people losing their jobs. Just because you may have a secure job, doesn't mean the rest of the country does. If the auto industry goes under, how many people do you think lose their job as a direct impact. It not only effects the factory workers, but the part makers, retailers, auto-repair, and so on. Sure, I understand your point on how you benefit at the moment, as do many others, but overall if things continue don't count on your security as everyone will be fighting for the same jobs and you may have a different point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynew Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 It not only effects the factory workers, but the part makers, retailers, auto-repair, and so on. And then little Jimmy who used to always eat lunch in Johnny's Diner gets laid off. Johnny makes less each week as a result, laying off a member of his staff, who just so happens to be the angry type... so he shoots up a post office, killing three postmen and delaying the delivery of several cheques. Tom down the road who was depending on that cheque has to close down his Internet Cafe, so now Lisa no longer has a place to browse Facebook, which means that now the poor CEO of Facebook loses out on advertising. Now before this, Facebook were going to hire a guy called Tibberous and pay him $80'000 a year, but now, seeing as they are making less off advertising, they decide to hire waynewex, who makes a nice cup of coffee. But now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel0 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mchl Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 But now.... Just import work force from Europe! I know the people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tibberous Posted November 25, 2008 Author Share Posted November 25, 2008 Lol. And if the automotive industry went under, eventually those people would find other jobs. The government can't pay them to work at a loss, especially not with some of the salaries those union guys are making. Besides, the automotive industry wouldn't shut down, it would file bankruptcy and eventually lower their workers pay. Granted, that hurts the people who are working there, but it also lowers the price of cars, which are already priced to high. Cheaper cars means more people will buy them, so more steel will be used, but less mechanics will be out of work. Every action is going to cause others, but the government can't keep trying to 'fix' things, because all it is really doing is screwing over one group by taking their money and giving it to another group -- the automotive industry isn't bailing me out of the 40k I racked up to be a programmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynew Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 But by now Europe has already lost faith in the Capitalist system and has fallen to Communism after another night-time Revolution by Lenin, who decided that being dead was boring and that Right Said Fred had made bald sexy again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynew Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Lol. And if the automotive industry went under, eventually those people would find other jobs. The government can't pay them to work at a loss, especially not with some of the salaries those union guys are making. Besides, the automotive industry wouldn't shut down, it would file bankruptcy and eventually lower their workers pay. Granted, that hurts the people who are working there, but it also lowers the price of cars, which are already priced to high. Cheaper cars means more people will buy them, so more steel will be used, but less mechanics will be out of work. Every action is going to cause others, but the government can't keep trying to 'fix' things, because all it is really doing is screwing over one group by taking their money and giving it to another group -- the automotive industry isn't bailing me out of the 40k I racked up to be a programmer. They would find jobs... maybe... but at whose expense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tibberous Posted November 26, 2008 Author Share Posted November 26, 2008 So your saying overpay them, to build cars that no ones buying, so they don't take someone elses job? We might as well just give out more welfare, then the %25 of people that choose to work will be in great demand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbin Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Omg there are so many things wrong with this thread.... I'm just leaving this one alone.... lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamez Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Even though Obama is becoming the next President, there is not much he can do. In 1999, 2000, and in 2001, the government had a surplus in money. Bush thought it would be a good idea to send back $400 per independent for every family. Then he created a bill to cut taxes. This bill is special, it cannot be touched or destroyed until it has expired. This bill will not expire until 2010. If this bill did not take place, and we use the surplus of money wisely we might not be in this situation. Gotta love Economics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Your tooth falls out, oh nohs! Don't worry! You can put it under your pillow, close your eyes and forget about the problem, dream sweet dreams, and tomorrow, your tooth is magically replaced by money. I think I should rename this thread to Tooth Fairy Economics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akitchin Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 i would like to point out that a recession isn't just a recession because people are playing into it. it has a specific definition, which is commonly two or more consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamez Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 When the economy is artificially manipulated the results will be large, and negative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akitchin Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 When the economy is artificially manipulated the results will be large, and negative. a statement sure to make its way into economics and political science textbooks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Yes, when will we learn to leave well enough alone and stick to naturally manipulating it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maq Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 When the economy is artificially manipulated the results will be large, and negative. a statement sure to make its way into economics and political science textbooks. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynew Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 i would like to point out that a recession isn't just a recession because people are playing into it. it has a specific definition, which is commonly two or more consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth. I know. But it was largely caused by a negative sentiment in the market. If people would had played into; I'd bet that we wouldn't be going through this economic crisis. Basically, everybody needs to stfu and stop scaring the hell out of each other. Here in Ireland, our national News channel employs a man called Charlie Bird (funny name amirite?) to cover the economic side of things. Trouble is, he's the most depressing reporter I have ever laid my eyes on, and what's worse is the fact that he trumps up the negative things while adding doubt to the positive things. I found out only recently that he had a pretty hardcore Communist past. So I wouldn't be surprised if he's only wanting to kick Capitalism in the gut while its down. The media has definitely played a role in this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbin Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Oddly enough people like/pay attention to bad news more than good news. It's kinda screwed up, and I agree with you; it can mess things up. People hear things are going down, freak out, and things go down more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mchl Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Oddly enough people like/pay attention to bad news more than good news. Oddly? Think about it a little. All animals are generally more concerned about signals of danger, than about 'good news' (whatever these might be) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel0 Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 The brain is also wired to be able to remember bad things in favor of good things. This is a defense mechanism so you may better protect yourself from such things in the future. So I've read at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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