saltedm8 Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I dont know if there is anything more you can do about it, but people around here dont seem to be able to tell the difference between a html question and a php one in all honesty, its getting really annoying telling users in the html and css forums 'this is a php question' !! Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 well when someone is asking an html question they probably are new to code on any kind of level, and therefore don't know any better. What's more annoying is the other side of that coin: when people post html/css questions in the php help forum. While (IMO) it's understandable if an html noob mixes shit up, if you're at the point of coding php, you should know by now the difference between php and html. But even then, it's not annoying that they don't know; I rarely see html questions in php sections where I feel the user truly doesn't know. Real reason it's annoying is that the person does know, and they are purposefully posting in the php section because it's higher traffic and they want their question answered faster. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-917629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel0 Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 It seems that some people just use "PHP Coding Help" as a general dump hole for all their questions regardless of what it actually is about. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-917693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedm8 Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 you would think that if they know php, even on a basic level, the first language they should know is html.. therefore should be able to tell the difference between the two.. I have been using x/html and css for around 5 years and am only just getting around to learning php.. not saying it has to be that long but I would have thought at least knowing the difference between the two would be useful.. Were I come from some of the code these 'coders' are using is horrific.. tables, frames etc and don't know the answer to the simplest questions.. that is fair enough for a beginner.. but imo, not for someone who has at least a usable amount of knowledge in html Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-917837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 well if they knew the answer they wouldn't be asking in the first place. p.s.- I don't really consider html and/or css to be a language... Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-917838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedm8 Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 I don't really consider html and/or css to be a language... HUH ??? how could they not be a language ??... does that mean php for example is not a language ?.. what's your reasoning for that ? of course they wouldnt ask in the first place.. but the point i was making is that they should learn html and css first to be able to understand this stuff better, that way the questions they ask and need help with are not so silly or simple basic 'start up' questions.. learning a language like php is greaat.. but html and css should come first, it just makes no seance to do it the other way around. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-917859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I'm not disagreeing in general; one should at least learn basic html before php, if one is wanting to get into web design. But there's lots of stuff you can do with php where you never touch or need to know anything about html. In fact, the whole idea of MVC is that you don't need to mess around with html when you are coding, and you don't need to know how to program to be a designer. Knowledge of css as a prerequisite is somewhat questionable even under the best of circumstances, as ideally a coder should be coding and a designer should be doing the css. Do you consider bbcode on this forum to be a language? cuz I mean come on be honest, that's what html pretty much boils down to. html is not a language; it's a bunch of markup tags. You can't honestly put php in the same boat as html. html marks up static content through tags with attributes. css picks up where html left off, as far as attributes. php generates dynamic content through loops and logic. Pushes data around from files to pages to databases. Manipulates data with various functions both user defined and built-in. There's just no comparison. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-917890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedm8 Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 In that respects then, going by what you have said.. php is not a language, its a software, because its not the language that is pushing it around its the software php ( the engine ) that drives it html is most definitely a language because you name me a language that does not use some form of operator or another in php <?php ?> in asp <% %> in html <html> they all have something in common and that is an opening < and a closing > operators. now lets look at the most obvious thing html ( hypertext markup language ) css is questionable, but some believe its a language simply because its own operators are { } but as they are not < > im not sure if they would be classed as operators, I suppose that's a debate as its an operator of sorts, just not the type we are usually used to. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-917913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 { } are not operators in css. They simply mark the beginning and end of the class or id property block. In php, they also mark the beginning and end of something: code blocks, like functions, classes, loops, and conditions. They can also be used to specify character positions in a string. This is not an operator even in php. css has no operators because it is not a language. < > are not operators in html. They mark the beginning and end of an opening or closing tag. An operator is not the same thing as a tag. In php they are logical operators, meaning less-than and greater-than. Html has no operators because it is not a language. Operators are mathematical "verbs", like: + addition. a plus b - subtraction. a minus b * multiplication. a times b / division. a divided by b = assignment. assign a to b == positive comparison. a equals b != negative comparison. a not equal b && logical comparison. a and b || logical comparison. a or b etc... <?php ?> and <% %> are somewhat like <html> </html> in that they mark the beginning and end of code, yes. This about the only thing you (sort of) got right in your post. now lets look at the most obvious thing html ( hypertext markup language ) Yes, that would certainly be a killer "how can you argue with that?" point, to average joe who doesn't know any better. The obvious thing about the "l" in html for someone who does know better, is that it is a buzzword. If we were to look at the actual copy of a page as a "noun", html and css would be like "adjectives." php, asp, etc.. would be like "verbs" but they would also be responsible for the "grammar rules". html/css is used to describe things. php etc.. (languages) are used to make decisions and do things. Next thing I know you're gonna tell me ajax is a language. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-917922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 html ( hypertext markup language ) Note that doesn't read: html (hypertext programming language ) Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-917939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Seriously, do you want to really know how "language" got pasted onto the end of html? It's because back in the day real programmers got tired of listening to the designers and copy editors whine all day about making shit bold or a certain font size and them having to go through all this trouble to make it as such so they put in the work to make tags for them to wrap it around themselves and told them how to use them. Next thing you know those designers and copy editors fancy themselves as programmers because they now have this magical ability to make shit appear different on a screen. Can't tell the difference between them being the ones deciding what gets marked up, vs. a program deciding what gets marked up. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-917941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedm8 Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 its still a language, no matter how you put it language as in speech, as in how something is written or spoken has to be learnt and combined a certain way to make seance.. that is a language to me maybe my arguments are flawed but you cannot argue about the meaning of the word 'language', just because its markup, does not make it non language, markup is a language in itself and anything in written text is a language as long as it has 'seance' or a proper construct. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-917971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 dude, it's "markup language", as in, you are marking up a real language (english, spanish, etc...) not as in a coding language in and of itself. Maybe if they had made it htlm it would be more clear to you. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-918027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amtran Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 dude, it's "markup language", as in, you are marking up a real language (english, spanish, etc...) not as in a coding language in and of itself. Maybe if they had made it htlm it would be more clear to you. +1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-918035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycho Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 A markup language is a system for annotating a text in a way which is syntactically distinguishable from that text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markup_language A programming language is an artificial language designed to express computations that can be performed by a machine, particularly a computer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language I think the disconnect here is that most people who understand programming are sometimes frustrated (myself included) by the fact that many lay people correlate a "markup language" with programming. The concept of a "webmaster" has also contributed to the denigration of true web-based application developers. Many people with the ability to use a WYSIWYG editor like Dreamweaver or even Word, considered themseleves a programmer - without even knowing basic HTML. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-918058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel0 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 HTML and CSS are what's broadly known as a DSL, a domain-specific language. It certainly is a language, but not the same kind of language as C, Java, Fortran, Haskell, Lisp, etc. are. These are called general-purpose programming languages. UML is a language as well, it's a modeling language. English is also a language (a natural language). The syntax you use in Excel spreadsheets is a language (DSL). Mathematics is also a language. There can be (and are) different types of languages. You cannot say that HTML is not a language just because it doesn't belong to the same group of languages as PHP does. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-918073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zane Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I dont know if there is anything more you can do about it, but people around here dont seem to be able to tell the difference between a html question and a php one in all honesty, its getting really annoying telling users in the html and css forums 'this is a php question' !! Well, despite the argument of whether or not PHP and HTML are of the same genre... which they are not I'm sure we all understand your rant. There isn't much can be done about these people other than either ignore them or to just refer them to a good tutorial, which they probably won't even read. It's already been said before but a good little percentage of the users here just dump their question(s) here .. in the most popular board...which is conveniently on the top..and hope to god they get a quick answer. They don't care if they know the difference between HTML, PHP, ASP, SQL or even PCP. Don't believe me? Take ya a quick gander throughout the 'most popular' board...and you tell me, if they all haven't been moved already. Hypertext Markup Language This is a pretty ridiculous argument. In my thoughts, like was mentioned already...I need to be able to use logic in order for me to consider it a language. Something like if(something is important) { // that something is bold } else { // that something is not bold } In the Pre-PHP era...I would have used something like Javascript (a Client-Side Language, because...well...that's probably all I would have known been able to use back then. If not then I could have taken classes (if I were old enough) or read books on Perl or CGI (which are Server Side Languages). Whatever the language may be...they all did the same thing..(if you used it for the same thing) prewriting HTML. Whether you use a loop, a database connection, mathematics, variables, calculus, trigonometry, etc, etc...you're just going to print out an HTML tag with the answer. The main difference in PHP (or any programmming language) and HTML is that in HTML you won't get any parse errors, notice errors, fatal errors, any kind of script errors. It either works or it doesn't and THAT all depends on your browser. The worst case scenario is that your page looks horrible. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-918116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedm8 Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 HTML and CSS are what's broadly known as a DSL, a domain-specific language. It certainly is a language, but not the same kind of language as C, Java, Fortran, Haskell, Lisp, etc. are. These are called general-purpose programming languages. UML is a language as well, it's a modeling language. English is also a language (a natural language). The syntax you use in Excel spreadsheets is a language (DSL). Mathematics is also a language. There can be (and are) different types of languages. You cannot say that HTML is not a language just because it doesn't belong to the same group of languages as PHP does. thank you, someone who is able to put up a good argument and something I finally agree with lol Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-918145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenway Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I always considered HTML more of a template. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-918207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedm8 Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 nah, its not a template.. a template is the result of html Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-918220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenway Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 nah, its not a template.. a template is the result of html Says who? Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-918234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedm8 Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 no one in particular just me lol but what do you mean by you thought it was a 'template'? where did you get that from ? Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-918240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenway Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 It acts entirely like a templating system would. Where I come from, any markup is just a glorified template. Think about it. A bold tag can be thought as representing "replace these characters with bold characters". I have built many template systems that all work on the same principle. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-918272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel0 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 HTML is a semantic representation of content. Nothing more. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-918278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 which is why I don't consider it to be a language, but a system, a "template" (thank you fenway). I maintain that "language" was snuck into the name by marketing. Quote Link to comment https://forums.phpfreaks.com/topic/174077-cant-people-tell-the-difference-between-php-and-html/#findComment-918295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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