open source feedback

[Ninjakreborn]

I am looking for some feedback on an open source project I am creating.

http://www.ppassistant.com

 

I have two things I want to build into this, and I am tossing around ideas as to the best approach.  I am starting to build its core into a framework.  I am getting the rough edges fixed over the weekend, and trying to move it in the direction I want to go.

I have two ideas I am trying to build into my system.

 

1. Programs - Stand-alone programs meant to make a developers life easier.  They are normal things that are generally needed to get larger things done.  For instance, my admin system, it is shitty right now and I am going to rewrite it once I am done passing these ideas.  Right now for the programs, they are in a folder inside PPAssistant, called programs.  Each one has its own folder, and they are all install and/or used differently.  For instance to install the admin program, it simply is moved into the root, and it is ready to go (or from it is starting position if you wanted.  The thing is these programs are always going to be reliant on the system.  For instance the admin program itself, the “include” for the configuration file of PPAssistant on every page.  The purpose of this is to make putting in programs easy.  For example, suppose that later on I want to create a program to handle ads.  I would want a div (copied and pasted) then set properties, and that would setup the area.  Then just passing a few lines into the admin program (They can go together), it is automatically installed, and ready for modification.

I simply have other ideas, I cannot really explain them here, because I do not even know what all.  It is just when I do projects; I build programs, and notice I end up rebuilding the same stuff, or copying and pasting old code.  I am intending on starting to build these into systems that can be fitted into any situation, and easy to install.

 

2. Tools - this is an idea I created.  It is in a folder called tools, it is controlled by index.php, and it is stand-alone (but still tied) to PPAssistant.  This is a group of tools to help developer’s lead better lives.  Some ideas I am tossing around are the encryption form (an idea that I don't really want to explain here right now), plus some other tools, to help make things programmers end up doing (for example, I am going to create a calculator, to instantly allow them to get access to it through tools, as well as, other ideas).  This is going to be constantly built upon.

 

Both the programs and the tools are both things I want "built into" the system, and I want to expand upon them over time.  Add new stuff and make old stuff better.  This is separate from my other stuff (I will still be creating JavaScript, Ajax, and PHP functions and classes.  Those are specifically with PPAssistant.

 

There are three concerns I have really.

1. I do not want it to be murderous to keep this thing documented

2. I do not want it to get so heavy it loads slowly, or takes forever to setup to start a project.

 

I am trying to think of ideas how to implement the programs idea, and tools idea, and still keep it within scope.  The programs/tools would build themselves. When I built a program for a website, I will build the skeleton to be very flexible and easy to plug-in/pullout of a project without touching the core of the site, and then I put the skeleton in as the program.  Whenever I use it again, I build onto it naturally, and put the new version in the programs folder overwriting the old. This way I do not waste any valuable time building programs, they just are built naturally, while doing projects.  The same with tools, if I find out later that I need something else I can just spend some spare time, building something to accommodate for that need.  Then I have it within tools.  This method will allow me to both expand programs/tools indefinitely, while the whole time working on old versions of them whenever I get around to using them again for projects.  Always expanding, cleaning up, and enhancing the skeletons to do more and more without ever going beyond the scope of "easily flexible".

 

That is pretty much it.  What I need advice on is how to implement these two ideas properly into my system "PPAssistant" without it getting too heavy.  I thought about having a download area sort of like Moo Goo JavaScript.  To where they can pick which programs they want included, as well as which tools they want included when they download, then based on the information, the file structure is put together dynamically, and developed into a zip file.  It might take a few minutes to get that up and running, but if it will allow me to indefinitely expand, while still keep my program light with the "take what you want, and leave the rest" mentality, then I am up for it.  However before definitely choosing between either what I mentioned (or just putting everything I build into the core structure by default), I want to hear the feedback from everyone else.  See if anyone else has any ideas on this.

 

Thanks.

 

[Nameless12]

You are going about this all wrong, I have told you this before you need to learn more before you start releasing software and now you have moved on from "beta testing" to "open source".

 

What you are doing is not a framework and it is not really a programmer assistant because it just creates more problems than it solves.

 

what it lacks and what it needs??

 

1. no method for automatic file loading, in my framework that i am refactoring at the moment I do not need to type an include line in a set file, i just dump the file in the right directory with the right file name and it is loaded automatically

2. poor naming conventions

3. no libraries of functions (yes you have more than one function, not enough to call a library)

4. no libraries of classes

5. ajax is javascript you don't need two directories for it

6. your configuration is overly complex and messy

7. most of your project is empty folders with a cut and paste index file

8. you force people to use session_start() on your own terms, not theirs <--- big mistake

9. poorly coded

10. you force people to use a database schema <-- frameworks don't do this

 

you should not release empty directory structures with a poorly coded config\admin and if you do release it you should not

release it as open source if anyone is using your code they must be a really bad programmer <-- im not being nasty, its just a fact no good programmer or half decent programmer would want to use that.

 

You lack objects, you should be using a registry instead of a global variable and inside the registry object you should have error objects directory, objects database, objects time objects, uri manipulation objects, email objects, an encryption object, a pagination object, a header object for the <head></head> portion of your page. You should have a cache object, a controller, recursive directory iterators used for loading files..

 

There is much more your system lacks the above is just meant to be a small taste. You keep failing to realize that what you have released is a few scribbles placed in a dir structure that is a horrible directory structure and until you learn more you will never know what a good directory structure is yet you have chosen to commit your self to this horrible horrible code instead of learning what is needed to do stuff correctly. If you are not going to do it properly that is fine but you are talking about releasing to the public\open source PLUS its your job ffs.

 

I read a topic the other day the one with your login script, not to be a real asshole to you but the code was sooo bad if you want a full critique and i doubt you do then just ask and ill pm you the critique. But it was ugly, unmaintainable it was not inside a class or function the code was poor and you used functions when not needed, there is more

 

You talk about doing stuff in oop at various points in time, yet you never present any oop code... I have looked through your code quickly and I don't believe you properly know how to use functions let alone classes. To top it off most of your functions don't use return values this is a big mistake. Functions and classes should rarely "echo" anything unless it is very important

 

Learn how and when to use functions before you learn oop and dont try to make a framework until you have both mastered oop but also the logic of many areas that are prerequisite to framework design.

 

Seriously you talk about modules, interchangeable parts and this kind of thing is only possible with functions or classes, less so with functions but possible. THe reason I say this is input output. the functions and classes take input and return output if you know the input and output is the correct you can just plug things into one another, yes more complex site development is more complex then that but i think that should be enough to get you started.

 

Do not create poorly coded "frameworks" that are not really "Frameworks" in the name of open source or for any cost to an employer otherwise you will look like an idiot to any programmer that reads your code. I have nothing against beginners but your changing money and have released it as open source and not only this but i have clearly given you pointers and said these same points in subtle ways to you previously yet you have ignored the points, that is fine ignore it all you want but after seeing your shitty login and your pp assistant getting its own web page\open source license i just felt like saying something.

 

I think its about time someone was more direct with you about this as I am sure I am not the only one who thinks this. And to the admins who read this I know I should not be so direct, what can I say I have tried to be subtle and he has not got the "point". And to you business man, you constantly ask for advice yet you never take it.. what is with that..

 

EDIT

 

   

    *  Donate

    * Offer code (not all is accepted)

    * Help write (plan) the documentation

    * Help come up with better documenation or offer to help keep documentation up to date as much as possible

    * Help consult with me on things to put into the program later on down the road. I have a lot of ideas I just need to start bringing them together.

 

the above is cut and paste from your webpage: Asking for donations, what a laugh...

 

You call your self business man but I find most programmers I know or know of that are involved in "business" know very little. Your name originally grabbed my attention ages ago for a variety of reasons all to do with stupidity but then later to find you were ripping off clients it just confirmed everything.

 

There is a lot wrong with the name, you can figure it out on your own but i will give you a big clue. business is the art of selling some bullshit to someone that knows less than you about what you are selling.... and you are right, you are a "businessman"

 

 

[Ninjakreborn]

All the "bullshit" you said (negative remarks/comments) I am going to ignore.

 

For all the helpful advice you offered, based on what I asked, I will take into account, and build that into the upcoming version.  You gave me some ideas to work with, thanks.

[Ninjakreborn]

Actually you are right.

Could you please pm me a full critique, if you wouldn't mind.  I will take what advice I can get.  Thank you for the feedback.

[Nameless12]

the negative remarks are not because you are a beginner\noob but because you charge money are asking for donations and have released it as open source. People should write code as good or as bad as they want but if they are not going to do it properly they should not release it online in the multiple ways you have done. If someone does release it in the manner you have done they should at least make sure it has reached beta, your code is not even alpha. In fact your code has yet to be properly designed, so how can software thats not properly designed and implemented be released. The answer is it shouldnt be released.

 

Dont ignore negative comments, there is a reason for negative comments and you should at least try to know the reason if you dont act upon it, you cannot do this if you ignore the negative comments. Denial is never a good thing, and I can assure you there are very good reasons for the negative things I have said.

 

You just posted your last post why I was typing this message, ill give you a crique shortly.

[Ninjakreborn]

Thank you it's apprecaited, I will respond to confirm when I get it, thanks again for caring.

anybody else, later on is welcome as well.

[Jessica]

If you'd spent half as much time actually programming and really thinking about what you were trying to do as you spent:

thinking up a name, getting the domain, finding a template (you're supposed to be a designer, yet you always use templates, sure), writing up all your copyright and usage bullshit, setting up a forum and making posts in it, thinking of ways that other people can help, and posting about it HERE - it might actually be worth pursuing.

 

I am intending on starting to build these into systems that can be fitted into any situation, and easy to install.

If it actually were that simple, a lot more people would have thought of it. People reuse code all the time, that doesn't mean it's worth making a "click to install" type of interface for every little thing you do. It's a waste of time. You have to weigh the cost of development vs the benefits.

 

I can't see why anyone would want to make it easier for themselves to "install" any of your code, but I guess somehow you've convinced some of your "clients". But it looks like you don't actually write much code for them anyways, from the looks of your portfolio. Template, third-party chat, third-party blog, more templates, more templates, paypal shopping cart, template, third party, wee.

 

Perhaps you should stick to installing other OS projects for now.

[roopurt18]

You know how some people just don't get math...

[Jenk]

businessman, take what these people have said as constructive criticism. Do not be offended by any of it, even in places where profanities have been used.

 

You have the enthusiasm that a lot of highly skilled and knowledgable programmers and developers do not have, believe me. If you can just edge your self to take on what is suggested and learn a good understanding of development practices, you will make a fine developer. It is no short easy path, but rewarding.

 

Golden rules of development:

 

1. A project is never finished, it can always be improved.

2. Nothing is ever the same, ever. Everything is new, no matter how similar.

3. You will get hounded, criticised, flamed and possibly even tortured, but none of it is personal.

4. If it can happen, it will happen.

 

[Nameless12]

You know how some people just don't get math...

 

I agree some people will just never learn math, for a whole bunch of reasons but everyone is capable. I think people think in a way that is OO and OO has inheritance! people that have a harder time learning something have a harder time because they have less to inherit from making them have to learn more than the person who inherited a few big classes.

 

Everyone is capable the question is, is it worth the huge amount of effort and time to create the classes?? if they think it is they should just be a persistent little shit if they do that they will eventually get to the goal, but they wont get there unless they learn how to study\learn in a way that works for them I think this is one of businessman problems I used to find it harder to study on my own when i was much younger, now I find it second nature it is a skill that has to be learned and you don't learn it by posting topics in forums!

 

 

[Jenk]

Gentlemen, please refrain from foul language. Firstly because it is against the rules, but secondly because it can be difficult to grasp the context it is used within. Text does not carry body language, nor tone of voice, so please be careful.

[Nameless12]

if you are referring to what i said it was just an expression..

[Ninjakreborn]

If you'd spent half as much time actually programming and really thinking about what you were trying to do as you spent:

thinking up a name, getting the domain, finding a template (you're supposed to be a designer, yet you always use templates, sure), writing up all your copyright and usage bullshit, setting up a forum and making posts in it, thinking of ways that other people can help, and posting about it HERE - it might actually be worth pursuing.

 

Quote

I am intending on starting to build these into systems that can be fitted into any situation, and easy to install.

If it actually were that simple, a lot more people would have thought of it. People reuse code all the time, that doesn't mean it's worth making a "click to install" type of interface for every little thing you do. It's a waste of time. You have to weigh the cost of development vs the benefits.

 

I can't see why anyone would want to make it easier for themselves to "install" any of your code, but I guess somehow you've convinced some of your "clients". But it looks like you don't actually write much code for them anyways, from the looks of your portfolio. Template, third-party chat, third-party blog, more templates, more templates, paypal shopping cart, template, third party, wee.

 

Perhaps you should stick to installing other OS projects for now.

No, it doesn't work like that.  I am a custom programmer.  I do 100% custom programming for clients UNLESS OTHERWISE REQUESTED.

 

When I work on my own site's, I don't have forever amounts of free time.  My own personal site's, I use a "third party" template for the design.  That's only on my site's, because I don't have the extra time necessary to create an entire one from scratch.  As far as clients, everything is custom built design, programming, layout, everything unless otherwise requested.

 

Most of what you said really pissed me off, my main image is about being a custom developer, and you come out here in the open and attack my image.

Iam going to bypass most of what you said, you didn't come here to advice me on this post, you came to attack me personally, adn criticize my business, it would have been better off this time if you had of kept this pathetic attack to yourself.  I don't like being criticized, if you want to talk shit, then just do me a favor and don't post.

 

If you intended to help, then thanks.  Next time you want to ramble on with insults like

The logical advice you did offer, you were offering based on a  misunderstanding.  I wasn't talking about a click to install interface, never would.  One component later of my framework is going to be a "tools" section that WILL have a GUI.  The reason is, it's a set of tools, it's meant to be used with a GUI.  It's a list of forms, and other things that do different things that I consider "developer tools". 

 

I can't see why anyone would want to make it easier for themselves to "install" any of your code, but I guess somehow you've convinced some of your "clients". But it looks like you don't actually write much code for them anyways, from the looks of your portfolio. Template, third-party chat, third-party blog, more templates, more templates, paypal shopping cart, template, third party, wee

This was a rude personal attack, keep this kind of stuff to yourself, Iw ould rather you never post in any question I ask than bring up this kind of shit.  If you want to help it's appreciated, if you want to criticize about something related to what I ask it's appreciated, but random personal attacks are not.  This wasn't related to my framework, you brought something up about me saying I do custom program, you go to my site, and find 1 client that wanted a third party blog, third party forum,and he chose his template by request.  Then you bring it on here, and attack me personally with ti.  From now on if you want to help thinks, if you don't then don't bother.  Some of the advice you offered help quite a bit, but it was still out of a misunderstanding.

 

Nameless -

You at first seemed (I feel maybe a little harsh), when I really looked at your advice there was NO personal attacks.  It was all related to what I asked about, and really gave me a lot to work with (the same with red, he never attacks me personally, he just gives harsh criticism, but only about what I ask, not about me when I never asked something).

 

as for jink, after looking over the whole thing, it seemed the only cussword used throughout the whole post was "bullshit".  You seemed that you were mistaken that I was upset at nameless, he was very helpful.  I misunderstood, and he helped me a lot, by sending me 2 pm's with a MASSIVE advice, about a whole new slew of ideas of what I can do with my framework, and what to focus on.

 

You said

businessman, take what these people have said as constructive criticism. Do not be offended by any of it, even in places where profanities have been used.

I wasn't offended, but some of the stuff that was said earlier were personal attacks not even related to what I originally asked.  I don't mind getting criticism, even harsh criticism, but personal attacks totally towards me or my career, I am getting tired of.

 

Everyone is capable the question is, is it worth the huge amount of effort and time to create the classes?? if they think it is they should just be a persistent little shit if they do that they will eventually get to the goal, but they wont get there unless they learn how to study\learn in a way that works for them I think this is one of businessman problems I used to find it harder to study on my own when i was much younger, now I find it second nature it is a skill that has to be learned and you don't learn it by posting topics in forums!

As far as this, I may still have a lot to learn (everyone does), however I am far from a beginner.  That is why I don't like people insulting my intelligence, just because I just started picking up OOP, and MVC doesn't mean I am just starting.  I am FAR from beginner level with what I do in web development.  I have a lot to learn, almost everyone with decent knowledge on the forum knows more than me, but I am far from beginner at web development.  The weak points I originally had, have ever started getting better.

 

As far as I knew as well, MVC and OOP are ideas.  I never heard anyone say they were law, so honestly, I could eventually become an "expert" without ever learning OOP, and MVC.  My point is MVC is just 1 pattern out of a million, a good programmer can still be good without ever touching OOP, and MVC.  IT's all based on personal taste (me personally I tried them and liked them, so of course I am learning them).

 

Thanks for all the help, and thanks again nameless for that massive advice pm you sent me.

 

Thanks again.

[Ninjakreborn]

@Nameless

 

I have been slowly going over your PM.  Heavily reading into everything you said.

 

 

{snipped quoted PM}

 

 

I spent most of the morning looking through license.  I looking at the GPL, the Lesser GPL, and BSD, and numerous others.  I ended up hearing some problems about the BSD license. 

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/bsd.html

Since you use it, maybe you can offer some feedback into this.

 

I have followed that advice, I rewrote the copyright information on that site, I also released it as BSD.  After looking through multiple license that sounded the closest to what I wanted.

 

Ok, the 2 things I didn't get.  You mentioned a Cache, and Abstraction Object.

Isn't the Abstraction a layer between the database and the program.

For instance

 

Browser -> requests page -> Page is sent to server -> DB queries sent through abstraction layer, php sent through php parser -> Output to browser

Is that the general idea.

As far as a cache Object, is this similar to the cache system in Code Ignitor.

In code ignitor when something is requested, it's cached.  Later it's retrieved from cache to go through security processes to make everything faster (based on the flow charts on there site).

 

Are the thoughts I have on both of those objects correct? Thanks

 

edit by redbullmarky: i snipped the PM as I believe personally that PM's should be just that - private, regardless of its content.

[Ninjakreborn]

@redbullmarky

 

Good point, I will keep that in mind.

Thanks.

[Nameless12]

I think you miss understood a lot of what I was talking about.

 

caching is just a way of saving stuff for later use, you can use it later to make different caching functions or methods to make your code faster.

 

I am not even going to try to explain abstraction to you as you don't know OOP.

 

Patterns are more important than you give them credit for, oop is also more important than you give it credit. But that aside you don't seem to realize that most good programmers will need no where near the same amount of time as a beginner needs to learn these things.

 

You are not using all of the php language and i am not referring to the extensions but the actual language its self, how can you expect people not to treat you like a beginner when there are such obvious holes in your knowledge. It takes more than knowing all of the language (not extensions) to make someone an expert, and learning all of the php language will not make you an expert, but it is prerequisite to even considering calling your self more than a beginner. If you keep being in denial about the large holes in your knowledge you will never learn, you will be happy being ignorant and be a beginner forever.

 

this is a bit rude for me to say this but its like I said earlier there are reasons people keep saying these things and it is the obvious holes in your knowledge.

[Stopofeger]

.........

 

I think you are doing too much criticism. This is not criticism, this is clear cut offence. There is ways to do criticism that doesn't feel like offence. Criticism can be done in a sober manner, not like this. It seems you hate everything he does? Why so much hatred?

Php is not a language that forces "things shud be done this way, that way bla bla". These are just styles and suggestions, not oppression. Different people has different style of coding, that doesn't mean that way wrong untill it works.

 

Object orientation is something relatively in this world and there is nothing wrong if someone uses procedural stuff. And I think u know that most of the programs we use are written in procedural way including the very own php and apache.

What is wrong if someone uses a directory structure he likes and suggests other to use it. You don't have to just blow it apart. If it works what's wrong with it?

 

Please know there are still fans of so called "spagetti code" and that doesn't make them bad programmers. It's all about style. Maybe OOP is the current trend but that doesn't mean its the answer of everything. So please emphasize OOP not force or scold someone.

 

Who are you to ask what names one shud have or what way they shud take?

 

What if I say "Your name is just untolerable". won't it hurt u? Its everyones taste. my username has no meaning, Its just came to my mind and i liked it.

simple.

But i tell you please learn to tolerate peoples taste. Atleast try to be open minded. Thats what open source is all about. Being open to all sorts of software, people and most importantly mindsets.

If u can't than just don't criticise. Because the way u criticise doesn't help people to understand their mistakes.

[ShogunWarrior]

You should include a link back to styleshout in your credits, as the template designer requested.

[Ninjakreborn]

It is, it's under credits.

I already spoke to the person about it, I am awaiting a response.

 

These designs on this site, as well as freelancebusinessman.com are placeholders.

I have a new graphic designer (one that is better than I had hoped), that was actually looking for a graphic design/programming tradeoff.  So, she is working up a new layout image of my site, and ppassistant that will give me something i can code.  Then the design will be changed over to the custom one, instead of one from styleshout.

[redbullmarky]

right - i'm gonna put my blunt hat on for now, and drift of topic, but this is important and could save you from more "egg on face"

 

ppassistant.com has a tiny credits link right in the lower corner. when you click it, you get taken to a page with simply:

Design based on a template by styleshout

with not even a link or anything. so someone that comes along that thinks "hmm this is a nice template. i wonder who did this?" will then have to go elsewhere, google it, just to find out who did your work for you.

 

if there's a credit given on freelancebusinessman.com, then it's so well hidden under (still) tonnes and tonnes and tonnes of waffle.

 

dude - it's a 30 second job that could potentially save you tonnes of hassle, legal action and costs - not to mention making you look less of a thief. hell, doing the whole template considering it's not groundbreaking shouldn't take longer than a few hours.

 

if you produced a design for other people to use freely, would YOU be happy about them not giving sufficient, visible acknowledgement? Don't worry - from previous posts, I already know the answer to this. I've downloaded your ppassistant, BTW, and decided to launch it as my own. I may pop a credit in the promotional site somewhere but it depends how i feel or if i get time to do it.

 

Just kidding. But I'm sure you see my point. Based on how long you tried to get the site looking good, over several months, the guy has saved you LOADS - at least give him a frigging link, not a half-hearted mention in a gloomy, tucked away corner.

 

The fact that phpfreaks, one of the largest PHP developer communities around, choose SMF and don't tuck the acknowledgements and credits away into a murky corner speaks volumes. Nothing to hide = nothing to be ashamed about.

 

After all is said and done, I don't know what's worse - not PROPERLY crediting someone for their work, or being told about it and still not doing anything claiming there isn't enough time - yet there's enough time to keep cracking on with other stuff that's less important than crediting someones hard work. It doesnt matter if you're going to replace it - the fact is about NOW, not tomorrow or next week.

 

And then, which is just taking the piss a bit:

I already spoke to the person about it, I am awaiting a response.

which implies you HAVENT spoken to the guy, you HAVENT yet got permission so until then - either stick a visible link giving the dude proper credit, or just continue to ignore all advice given (seemingly) as per usual.

 

It all makes no difference to me but if you're too proud to recognise a kick up the arse and some good advice, then your ppassistant will last as long as a virgin bedding Angelina Jolie.

 

Sorry to bite dude, but your ethics and understanding are far from what you seem to want to preach, which is a shame - cos someone with your persistence and tenacity should be flying high not scraping barrels for get-arounds and free work.

[Ninjakreborn]

Advice appreciated, but I never really asked anyone's advice on that.  Thanks again.

 

I plan on changing out the layout in less than a week, if the original person who created the template has a problem with it, let him message me, and I will take the damn thing down.

 

Can someone lock this thread, I stopped asking for advice on this a long time ago.

Thank you for the attempt.

 

no hard feelings...

[Ninjakreborn]

Ok, I understand why you would want to offer advice.  It's just from now on I have been really careful about asking for advice.  I don't ask for advice anymore if I don't want to hear it, or can't handle it without snapping.  in this situation all the feedback in the last 2-3 were unasked for, I marked solved earlier (if it where here), so instead I abandoned it.  I know everyone makes mistakes, so do I.  Except I am willing to correct them.  My website, as well as pp assistant will be entirely recreated shortly using a custom template I am getting the image for and coding myself.  I just have to get some together and get sometime.

 

Even my framework, no matter what anyone thinks of it, I am proud of it.  Lately, I decided to believe in myself.  I am getting more projects, completing them a lot better.

 

I relaunched my entire business www.freelancebusinessman.com/generalpricing.php

using those pricing guidelines, when I chose them I decided to believe in myself, and my abilities.  It's allowing me to pick up things I never knew before and start getting things done with them in a few hours.  IT's allowed me to get my business life organized and everything.  The reason I am tired of this is one mistake I made was asking for advice when I didn't want to hear it, or didn't need to hear it.  So I stopped, just any post I made asking for advice is null and void unless it's a new one.  I won't ask for advice unless I am ready to take the criticism without getting pissed.

 

That is just one (among many) things I have changes to make things better for me, and other people around me.  As far as the open source project I am working on, I am releasing another version (already have a start date appended to it).  It will hopefully be something that will start to be able to equal cake and code ignitor.  It will take some time to develop.  I have a huge list of features that I am building in, involving an entire rewrite and the birth of tools/programs.  I intend to revolutionize it after this next release.  Given 1-2 more good releases, it will start being able to hold it's own among the most powerful frameworks out there (hopefully) I will never give up on it.  If I wasn't interested in developing it into something powerful I would have never created it in the first place

 

on a side note I found a really powerful extension that performs spell checking as you type in text areas.  Google dictionary firefox extensions, not sure which one this was, but it's powerful.