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#1 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 06:18 PM

I have a few questions that I really need to ask
I have a few php related questions here but some aren't please someone help me answer all of these. I will give explanations to why I am asking as well. I have come a long way lately, pulling 80 hour weeks, trying my hardest to learn php, sql, and finish my knowledge on javascript, along with learning web design layout, content writing, as well as when I Get photoshop next week I am learning photo manipulation, banner, logo's and more. I have come a long way's and I have a long ways to go. I know it's something a lot of people don't agree with but I have ambitions. I know xhtml, css, and good bit of javascript. I am not learning php, sql, graphic design(enough to handle everything I need) design layout, content writing. I am studying all this currently and soon. No matter who tells me it won't work I have ambitions on the side from doing projects to also fully learn asp, jsp, asp.net c+, c++, c#, ajax(now that I know what it does) vbscript(to use with asp), bbcode(for building forums), flash(very soon), maybe xml, maybe wml, ado is in my mind but I don't know much about it.
I have some questions here, I know people have answered me alot so far, and helped me alot, I have also tried to spread my html, and css, and javascript, and what php knowledge I know through people helping when I can to return the favors, obviously somebody booted me to guru. From lurker to guru in one post. I need help with these, these are very important questions, I strung them together in one post to avoid 50 different posts, these are things I need to learn before I Start compiling my php, and further knowledge to be able to start creating a new era in web design. and see my visions through, my crappy www.freelancebusinessman.com as it is now was built 4 times from scratch, I just didn't know about that, and I learnt the significance of something called pre web design planning, and will learn how to utilize that on all aspects.
Here are my questions.
1.What is xml, do I need to learn this, where I am studying php it speaks a lot of xml, and smlst, or something. I know to look around myself I did I do not understand what it is and what the significance of xml is, and what it is used for. I also read that xml can be used WITH xhtml without replacing it, how do I do this, I would build website mostly using css, xhtml, javascript, php, mysql, and xml, but I need to know where the place of xml fits into all of this as a whole.
2. I saw some about ajax, I asked questions about it and was told on this board, it's lightning fast, if a menu is done in ajax you can't even tell when it loads, can ajax be used to create an entire website, if so does it replace xhtml and css, or is it another language that can be used with it.
3. What is ado, what is it used for, again I researched this and didn't get it.
4. ok now to php. I have to learn asp and jsp, I just want to know if they are indeed basically the same with different syntax I have had some some very good programmers tell me once they caught on to php, they could utilize the aspects of asp or jsp just by looking around at the syntax they could do basically the same things with a whole lot less effort than the first itme they learnt.
5. I am confused about databases. I found out msaccess creates database, that isn't learning sql though, sql is produced from a database, can I create a database from scratch in a wordpad, like I can a css file, or a php file, or do I have to have a database program, if so what's the point of me learning the sql language if I don't need it to create databasing. If so which database program do I need, I will get oracle once my freelancer career gets taken off enough but for now what is the second best I can get, and what is the best version of oracle available.
If anyone can answer these Iwould greatly appreciate it, and I will continue returning the favors by answering questions and helping people whenever I see something asked that I have an idea about or know the answer to.

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#2 redbullmarky

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 08:24 PM

hi businessman
one thing i can't knock is your enthusiasm. however, i think your approach maybe shooting yourself in the foot a little bit, if a little unnecessary.

i'll ask one question of your first - have you put all of the knowledge you have so far into practice? if the answer is no, then i'd get on to it. if the answer is yes, then i apologise.

i'll skim over a few of your questions that i've looked into more recently:

[!--quoteo(post=367259:date=Apr 21 2006, 07:18 PM:name=businessman332211)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(businessman332211 @ Apr 21 2006, 07:18 PM) View Post[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
2. I saw some about ajax, I asked questions about it and was told on this board, it's lightning fast, if a menu is done in ajax you can't even tell when it loads, can ajax be used to create an entire website, if so does it replace xhtml and css, or is it another language that can be used with it.
[/quote]lightning fast - i'd agree with that to an extent. put it this way - it's faster than a complete pageload, by miles, which is the whole point of it. grabbing new dynamic data from the server without reloading the page, which before ajax was the traditional method in most cases. AJAX is a mixture of Javascript and XHTML, and is not a replacement for either, never mind CSS. look at AJAX as an 'interface' rather than a new language - it allows a webpage to 'talk' to the server without reloading a page to request the information.

[!--quoteo(post=367259:date=Apr 21 2006, 07:18 PM:name=businessman332211)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(businessman332211 @ Apr 21 2006, 07:18 PM) View Post[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
4. ok now to php. I have to learn asp and jsp, I just want to know if they are indeed basically the same with different syntax I have had some some very good programmers tell me once they caught on to php, they could utilize the aspects of asp or jsp just by looking around at the syntax they could do basically the same things with a whole lot less effort than the first itme they learnt.
[/quote]why do you HAVE to learn asp/jsp? ok agreed, developing upgrades for a client who currently uses ASP/JSP would only be possible if you know the languages, but i think youre learning for learnings sake more than anything practical. but ASP/JSP/PHP all pretty much do the same thing - they run on the server to a specified set of rules (calculations, database reading/writing, user input, etc) and then form the HTML that is sent to the users browser. it's fair to say that once you've learnt one of them comfortably would mean that the others would be easier to grasp. they all work in a very similar way, as do ALL scripting languages. and yes - i'm confident enough to say that anything that can be done in ASP can be done with PHP, and vice versa.

[!--quoteo(post=367259:date=Apr 21 2006, 07:18 PM:name=businessman332211)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(businessman332211 @ Apr 21 2006, 07:18 PM) View Post[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
5. I am confused about databases. I found out msaccess creates database, that isn't learning sql though, sql is produced from a database, can I create a database from scratch in a wordpad, like I can a css file, or a php file, or do I have to have a database program, if so what's the point of me learning the sql language if I don't need it to create databasing. If so which database program do I need, I will get oracle once my freelancer career gets taken off enough but for now what is the second best I can get, and what is the best version of oracle available.
[/quote]
as with the PHP vs ASP, Mac vs PC, OSX vs Windows debates, there is no right or wrong answer here.
the point of SQL is that it's a tried and tested method to read and write data to/from a database very very quickly. there are loads of options - mysql, mssql, postgresql, oracle, etc but they all do the same thing. mysql works for me because its open source, easy to get the basics, good to get complicated with, etc, etc. i havent bothered to learn any of the others because (and this is the reason why you should calm down and reevaluate what youre trying to achieve with all this) i havent needed to and i havent been given a good enough justification as to why i should digress.
if you really must master the similarities between the SQL versions, etc, then do what i did. download a copy of phpbb or another open source package that uses alot of databasing, and have a look at their files for handling each of the different types of database system.


not to knock you or tell you what to do, but i reckon you should seriously start putting this knowledge of yours into action. there's no better explaination than the desired result coming up on your screen.

hope that helps a bit
cheers
Mark
"you have to keep pissing in the wind to learn how to keep your shoes dry..."

I say old chap, that is rather amusing!

#3 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 08:30 PM

I appreciate it, I do test around with php as I go, I already have mastered Xhtml and css, I just need to finish with php and javascript and sql, I have 4 projects I am sitting on but they are all waiting for me to learn. I have one in a few weeks, so I will be utilizing it all then when I start, and start working through the problems as I encounter them, about the databases, you siad you use mysql. That's what I am confused about, do you go into notepad and type up your databases, or do you have to use a program, what program do you use to create your mysql databases, and what do I do if a server I am working on doesn't accept mysql.

another question. What all programminga nd coding languages do you know total.

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#4 redbullmarky

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 08:41 PM

[!--quoteo(post=367300:date=Apr 21 2006, 09:30 PM:name=businessman332211)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(businessman332211 @ Apr 21 2006, 09:30 PM) View Post[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
I appreciate it, I do test around with php as I go, I already have mastered Xhtml and css, I just need to finish with php and javascript and sql, I have 4 projects I am sitting on but they are all waiting for me to learn. I have one in a few weeks, so I will be utilizing it all then when I start, and start working through the problems as I encounter them, about the databases, you siad you use mysql. That's what I am confused about, do you go into notepad and type up your databases, or do you have to use a program, what program do you use to create your mysql databases, and what do I do if a server I am working on doesn't accept mysql.

another question. What all programminga nd coding languages do you know total.
[/quote]

there are several programs to create databases, but the absolute best (and probably most popular & widespread) is phpmyadmin. free, easy to pick up, and most web hosts have it. (if you host your own sites, its also very easy to install).

creating the database is generally done via some form of program/application, such as phpmyadmin as i mentioned, command line tools, or various other ways. the way i work is to just make a DB using phpmyadmin (database itself plus its tables). anything else (adding/updating/deleting records, etc) is all done via my php scripts.

edit:most hosts offer mysql, due to the fact that its both free, strong and popular. if you're hosting your own sites, its easy enough to install. even some of the £2.99 a month hosting packages here are now offering at least one mysql database to play with.

myself, i know a lot of BASIC, little bit of Pascal and a fair chunk of C++ and a little Assembly language.
for web design - i know a fair deal of PHP, MySQL, (X/D)HTML, CSS, Javascript, and i purely stick to them. I do keep tabs on other languages too, so i'm not being unnecessarily biased, but the ones i mentioned let me get my job and the client requirements done as quick as possible.

i like to think that not learning everything leaves me something to learn when i get bored.
"you have to keep pissing in the wind to learn how to keep your shoes dry..."

I say old chap, that is rather amusing!

#5 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 08:51 PM

so then where does mysql come in, I am glad you are here I have tried sorting this out for weeks, but you are making it make sense, I have heard of that myadmin, and I don't host my own, I just work for people off there servers, and some lady asking me to "mantain her server" whatever that means. But where does MySql and all those other names quik, and sql, and postgresql, where do these come in you said you use mysql, what do you mean. Is it the way it connects, and if that's true then those are just different tags to connect to the database, but if thats true then sql isn't a language right

I read your edit I think that sounds better, than trying to cram in every language before I start my first project, I think I will just when I get photoshop I will get a lot better with manipulating photos and banners, and logos so I can do my own stuff, and I Will finish studying php, sql, then get my javascript and css better, and then start working on my projects there, and just start working on flash on the side, to be able to do intros, and then just learn the rest down the road in my spare time.

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#6 redbullmarky

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 08:59 PM

[!--quoteo(post=367307:date=Apr 21 2006, 09:51 PM:name=businessman332211)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(businessman332211 @ Apr 21 2006, 09:51 PM) View Post[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
so then where does mysql come in, I am glad you are here I have tried sorting this out for weeks, but you are making it make sense, I have heard of that myadmin, and I don't host my own, I just work for people off there servers, and some lady asking me to "mantain her server" whatever that means. But where does MySql and all those other names quik, and sql, and postgresql, where do these come in you said you use mysql, what do you mean. Is it the way it connects, and if that's true then those are just different tags to connect to the database, but if thats true then sql isn't a language right
[/quote]
its as much a language as anything else. consists of rules and basic syntax and the way you organise or use these will vary the output.
don't be too confused with all the different versions. having mysql, prostgresql, mssql, etc, etc is no different to having BASIC, BBC Basic, visual BASIC, etc,etc. its just a bunch of different people who have a slightly different take on what's ultimately the same thing - Structured Query Language. MySQL (or any of it's alternatives) just kinda sit on the web server to serve data. Look at Apache or IIS as the program that serves web pages, and MySQL/whatever as the program that serves database data. Apache is different to IIS in many ways, but they both do the same thing. Mercs are different to BMW's but they both do the same thing.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
I read your edit I think that sounds better, than trying to cram in every language before I start my first project, I think I will just when I get photoshop I will get a lot better with manipulating photos and banners, and logos so I can do my own stuff, and I Will finish studying php, sql, then get my javascript and css better, and then start working on my projects there, and just start working on flash on the side, to be able to do intros, and then just learn the rest down the road in my spare time.
[/quote]well like i say, i'm not going to knock you if you wanna learn every language under the sun, but just watch that it doesnt effect your enthusiasm to keep at it.
"you have to keep pissing in the wind to learn how to keep your shoes dry..."

I say old chap, that is rather amusing!

#7 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 09:03 PM

thanks so where do I get this phpmyadmin, this is going to be something I can create databases on my computer, and then I just upload the databases onto there server like I would if I were loading an xhtml, or css file. Let me know thanks.

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#8 redarrow

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 09:07 PM

businessman332211 I dont relly understand why your in such a hurry to know all the programming langues in the world and always ask these long quistions why not try them out.

I have a master degree with macromedia products and a mcse and cisco and the a++ so in the networking class of jobs i am grate but never used them i got board lol, and i use them rearly i had to study for 4 years to get them under my belt they sit on the lonly wall know.

I never learnt anythink unless i had a plan and a erge for somthimk, i thort that i be a networking/designer on privert jobs but i worked on a market stoll and ernt more money then computers what a joke ha

In todays world i dont see any need to go and bash your brain with all those computer programming languges and get nothink back at the end and have a huge brake down or a big home and a nice car but still no money in the pocket.

Always remember that there always be someone more educated then your self and you should learn from that and have fun with your programming field.

I personally dont think it comes to how meny langues you know and what grate computer skills you got i think it come from a persons personalty and have a very huge creative side in side there self.

I do relly think you need to sit back and leave your computer alone and use it for fun and have fun with your creative side of life and stop worrying about how meny languges you need to marster and enjoy what you no know.

I have read loads of your posts and you go right into one about the ins and outs of everythink its like you want to be a master in all programming langues and own the net.

You as a person is probly a rely nice guy but you need to carm down and have fun.


All the best









Wish i new all about php DAM i will have to learn
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#9 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 09:10 PM

I will I am going to concentrate on what I know and finish learning php as a server side, mysql, as a database, refine my javascript for browser side, and clean my css up some then start doing jobs.

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#10 redbullmarky

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 09:16 PM

[!--quoteo(post=367312:date=Apr 21 2006, 10:03 PM:name=businessman332211)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(businessman332211 @ Apr 21 2006, 10:03 PM) View Post[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
thanks so where do I get this phpmyadmin, this is going to be something I can create databases on my computer, and then I just upload the databases onto there server like I would if I were loading an xhtml, or css file. Let me know thanks.
[/quote]

[a href=\"http://www.phpmyadmin.net/home_page/index.php\" target=\"_blank\"]http://www.phpmyadmin.net/home_page/index.php[/a]

although if your host has mysql support but doesnt have phpmyadmin installed for you, i'd be very very surprised.
phpmyadmin is written in php, so to run it off your computer you will need to have a complete WAMP/LAMP installation. as i said before tho, youre more likely to have access to it from your host's control panel.
"you have to keep pissing in the wind to learn how to keep your shoes dry..."

I say old chap, that is rather amusing!

#11 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 09:22 PM

confused again. So How do I build the databases, and how does the server,, AARRRGGGH. Ok the server has a php module that process the php, I know all of that, so the server also has a module to "process" the specific database. All databases are written in sql, and the variations of sql, mysql, postgresql, adn the others are to "connect" to the sql database. right. So the phpadmin, isn't a program I use to build databases but a module that a webserver uses to process them right. Ok so I am wondering, dreamweaver i build xhtml, and css files. and php files, and upload them on the server, the module parses the php, and turns it into output, and it comes to the screen. The database, I don't built it on a program on my computer and upload it do I, I thought it was the equivilant of Dreamweaver-xhtml, css, php. Then another program for databases, to do the same thing, create them on my computer, upload them to the clients web server, like that, that is the part I keep getting very very confused. My webserver yes it has phpmyadmin in the control panel. But for instance, msaccess, I heard it's bad but it's all I have, if I use it, and build a database, after wards I upload my database on to the clients web server, and connect the php files to it, with whatever you do to connect them. And then that's it right. Instead of msaccess since it's bad what other "program" do I need to start building databases on my computer to upload. And if I use a program to build a database, is that hand coding databases, I wanted to hand code everything, does using the program take the easy way out, and write and the sql for you, I am severely confused here.

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#12 AndyB

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 09:31 PM

[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]I am severely confused here.[/quote]
That doesn't surprise me in the least. For whatever reasons, you have set about to become an expert in everything under the sun. It's not going to happen.

A database is not a program. It's a collection of organized data. To 'build' a database, you need to create one or more tables and for each table define the particular fields you want to use (type and size) to create the organization of each 'row' of the data.

No databases are written in sql. SQL is an acroynm for Structured Query Language - the technique or method for asking the database to do 'something'.

Any worthwhile *nix host includes MySQL and phpMyAdmin (a simple but powerful database administration tool).

The best advice I can offer is that you stop 'learning' and start doing - you'll learn then the practical side of each of the techniques you need and see how they all come together to produce something tangible. Theory is fine, but your future clients are going to pay for something finite and finished, not something that uses (or abuses) every known technology.
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#13 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 09:38 PM

so would you recommend ms access or does that phpadmin in the control panels allow me to do the same thing.
Other than xhtml, css, javascript, php, sql(mysql), and flash, is there anything else you recommend learning. Or would everything else roughly be a waste of time. I will list the languages I am thinking about, tell me honestly in your opinion, is it going to help me in any way as being a professional web designer, coder, programmer.
Xhtml, css, javascript, php, sql(mysql), flash, I am already know, learning, or going to learn these.

ajax
asp
jsp
ado
c+
c++
c#
perl
xml
wml
java
or anything else
tell me in your own professional opinion what you think will make me a better web designer, coder, and programmer. I just wanted to be able to doing anything related to "websites" i was told that you can't learn everything, I never intended to learn everything, but I was told by thousands of people,

[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
"You can't learn everything in the universe, but you can learn everything about something or a few things"
[/quote]
That's how I want to be in this situation, I want to know everything about web design, I already know almost everything about video games, now it's just web sites. I don't want to know about everything related to everything, I just want to know about everything relating to web design, coding programing. I have the ability to research hosts, and do web site search engine optimization and submission, and keywords analysist, and setting up link exchanges. I am not a knowledge hog per ce I am just interested in this, I want a client when they come to me, to know I can get the job done, whatever there "website" needs only may be relating to. I don't think this is wrong, difficult, or impossible. I think it's just a fact, that I finally found somethign I am interested in, and I want to run with it, until I can say, I know enough to do almost anything with "web sites" or things relating to "web sites" as relating to web hosting, and htings of that nature./

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#14 gizmola

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 09:46 PM

[!--quoteo(post=367325:date=Apr 21 2006, 02:22 PM:name=businessman332211)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(businessman332211 @ Apr 21 2006, 02:22 PM) View Post[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
right. Instead of msaccess since it's bad what other "program" do I need to start building databases on my computer to upload. And if I use a program to build a database, is that hand coding databases, I wanted to hand code everything, does using the program take the easy way out, and write and the sql for you, I am severely confused here.
[/quote]

This is a problem I see neophytes struggling with frequently. Interactive websites are almost universally driven by a database. Relational databases (Sybase, SQL Server, Oracle, DB2, MySQL, Postgresql) are typically preferred for their combination of power, speed and performance. SQL is the language you use to talk to a relational database, either to create tables, query information, or add/update/delete rows.

Spend some time learning about relational databases. MySQL is very frequently used in the open source world, and commonly discussed on this forum. This website and the forum are built on top of LAMP (linux, apache, mysql, php). If you don't develope a good understanding and competency with relational databases, you will have a tough road ahead of you in regards to building interactive websites.

#15 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 09:49 PM

I will note that and when I get into php enough to start linking database i will do an intense study to find out the relationships between different types of databases.

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#16 redbullmarky

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 09:51 PM

the term "Jack of All Trades, Master Of None" springs to mind when reading that quote of yours.

you're actually going off on massive tangents when it's totally unnecessary.

what do you want to code? games or websites? if its the former, then youre in the wrong place. if its the latter, then quit talk about C++ and all these other things you seem to be getting fed from somewhere.

ok - HTML is what you know already, along with bits of javascript, etc.

pick a server side language. i'll suggest PHP as youre on phpfreaks, but ASP/JSP are others. dont learn them all. you'll be able to pick them up quick enough if you need to, on the condition that you know one.

pick a database language. MySQL is the only one necessary. the others are pretty much all designed to do the same thing. phpmyadmin will help you create and maintain it, but reading/writing, etc is down to your PHP code.

using the 3 above - you can create a dynamic site that looks the absolute dogs b***ocks, and even use AJAX and all the other stuff you go on about learning. dont get bogged down in what else there is - just get bogged down with what you need. you will only ever know what you really need when you actually pull your finger out and start putting some of this stuff to practice.

otherwise, youre totally wasting your time.
"you have to keep pissing in the wind to learn how to keep your shoes dry..."

I say old chap, that is rather amusing!

#17 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 10:02 PM

that's the hard part, I ahve been trying to do projects, in reality I suck at design, I mastered Xhtml, css. I studied javascript for awhile the discovered server side and database driven and dynamic websites and all that. I studied on all that for awhile, I chose php, and mysql, partially because everything I studied about php seemed better than teh other 2 and mysql because itw orks best with php by what I have studied, so I choose those 2, flash I decided to pick up in my spare time for intros I have been asked about them a dozen or more times. BUt when I created a website with Xhtml, css, javascript, I came out with a piece of crap.
[a href=\"http://www.freelancebusinessman.com\" target=\"_blank\"]http://www.freelancebusinessman.com[/a]
I created that 4 times, from scratch hand coded, I do all the clean code, all teh standards, but when I look at the site it still sucks. That is what is confusing me, even though I know these, even though I am learning php, sql, and those, I am going to know that when I sit down to build another website it is still going to suck, that is what is driving me to keep learning, until I get enough knowledge to sit down and build a website, and people will look and say wow. that is what I want, but I can't get to that, so I figured that I could learn php, sql and it would make it alot better.

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#18 AndyB

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 10:09 PM

If what you want to do is 'sell' web sites, then it doesn't matter how much you know about the underlying technologies if the end result looks like garbage. The end result is the only thing web site visitors see and the only thing that your clients would see for the most part. All the back-end bells and whistles are invisible to web visitors - they just see the html that's rendered by their browser.

Trust me, nobody ever says "that site might look like garbage, but the server-side code is spectaculaly clever". What they say is "that site looks like garbage and I can't think why I would buy a web site from there".

It's not what you know, it's how you put it together that matters.

Take some time off from 'learning' and spend some time 'doing' - start with a graphic redesign of your site.
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#19 Ninjakreborn

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 10:24 PM

should I use photoshop or fireworks mx 2004.

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#20 AndyB

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 10:54 PM

[!--quoteo(post=367345:date=Apr 21 2006, 06:24 PM:name=businessman332211)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(businessman332211 @ Apr 21 2006, 06:24 PM) View Post[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]should I use photoshop or fireworks mx 2004.[/quote]

Neither. Use a pencil and paper to do the 'layouts'. When you have settled on a final 'look', put it away for a day and look at it then. If you still like it, then you can think about coding/graphics.

Photoshop/Fireworks are not design tools for web pages - they are among the tools you might use to build your site. Which you use, or whether you use either, depends on what you need to do and how proficient you are with those tools. Being able to use a word-processor doesn't make you an author. Being able to use Photoshop doesn't make you an artist.

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