shank888 Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 Hey, I am trying to brign the Welcome table to have a border on the left side of 10px, and make it strecth all the way to the login to within 10 px. as well I want the bottom blue bar to have a spacing of 10 on the top of it. How do I do this? http://beta.babble-net.com/ I know this is quite an easy task, but I can get it working for firefox although not uplaoded ont eh server yet, but for IE and Opera it does not seem to want to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFilmGod Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 tables? puke puke. :-X Use full css. Use tables only for tabular data. Once you get to know css better it's like heaven! I'm serious, it makes live 110% easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duclet Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Easier? You must not have work with CSS in a long time or don't care about cross browser compatibility. While I agree people should start to use CSS, the fact is, it is not greatly supported. Too many times you get things to work correctly in one browser and it doesn't work in another (namely IE). Though for you, get rid of the tables and use divs with relatively positioning should do the trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFilmGod Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Easier? You must not have work with CSS in a long time or don't care about cross browser compatibility. While I agree people should start to use CSS, the fact is, it is not greatly supported. Too many times you get things to work correctly in one browser and it doesn't work in another (namely IE). Though for you, get rid of the tables and use divs with relatively positioning should do the trick. :D Then you clearly do not have enough css experience. I've been coding hard css for over 9 months and I got such a hang of it that 99% of the time it works perfectly in all browsers. I often don't even open IE to test it until I'm done with the page. Once you know how to code well, it isn't hard. It's actually easier. Trust me, tables are a nightmare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsider Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Easier? You must not have work with CSS in a long time or don't care about cross browser compatibility. While I agree people should start to use CSS, the fact is, it is not greatly supported. Too many times you get things to work correctly in one browser and it doesn't work in another (namely IE). Though for you, get rid of the tables and use divs with relatively positioning should do the trick. :D Then you clearly do not have enough css experience. I've been coding hard css for over 9 months and I got such a hang of it that 99% of the time it works perfectly in all browsers. I often don't even open IE to test it until I'm done with the page. Once you know how to code well, it isn't hard. It's actually easier. Trust me, tables are a nightmare. I normally don't 100% agree with anyone on issues pertaining to this, but I support this statement. CSS makes life easier, and look pretty damn good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haku Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 I have to agree with the film god as well. Well coded CSS needs very few exceptions even for IE. Although it almost always does need a little something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToonMariner Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 the best method to reduce / eliminate the extra css need to get ie (esp ie6) to play ball is to use a strict doctype forcing ie in standards 'compliant' mode... most of the extra css requires relates to the box model differences - this is negated in 'compliant' mode... Does solve ALL the issue but does MOST of the,. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duclet Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Clearly you people have not done anything truly complicated with CSS. Nine months? Try 3 years! Yes, CSS is great and I love it myself but to say it is easily is simply foolish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GameYin Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Well I have to disagree with you. The syntax is easy, not too many selectors, properties only a few per selector, and values are easy. Maybe you just had a hard time learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haku Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 You are both right in your own ways - the basics are quite easy to pick up, and its pretty easy to right valid CSS. But learning how it all works with each other, and what techniques work with what, takes a lot of time and is quite difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToonMariner Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Clearly you people have not done anything truly complicated with CSS. Nine months? Try 3 years! Yes, CSS is great and I love it myself but to say it is easily is simply foolish. this depends - the KISS rule (keep it simple stupid) is very often responsible for producing EXCELLENT results. The effort required in constructing css to achieve your goal is dictated by the markup you have to work with and what your remit is. Those who HAVE to produce something that is 'identical' cross browser will of course be the ones who suffer - you will either have to sacrifice or hack - neither you want to do but hey. I personally do not believe in bending over backwards just to help out 2001 (IE6) I even use css3 so that I can achieve some of these fantastic things - but only in browsers that support it. The others I make sure something adequate is provided... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duclet Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Unless it is your own personal web site and you don't care about your visitors, then you have to make your stuff cross browser compatible. Working at companies whose web sites gets millions and millions of people visiting each day force you to make your code cross browser. And yes, that also means dealing with structures written by someone else. Heck, I have to make all of my code compatible with Firefox, IE7, IE6, Safari, and Opera with IE8 looming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToonMariner Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 dulcet - you need to read trancending css - andy clarkes fantastic book... there is a wonderful analogy ion there about the web and browsers likened to hd tv and an old tv... go read. This about education and breaking out of the stifling environment that, lets face it, doesn actually do any one any good. The is no real impetus to move the development of the technology forward. I work at one the UK's top agencies so I understand completely the problems dealing with clients wish lists - educating them (chucking in bits like 'award' and 'compliance with law' can really help the client understand that what they wanted initially is both difficult and undesireable... OK my analogy (couldn't resist)........ Many people have a car - there are lots of cars available from different manufacturers offering different features and of course of differing ages. Lets say I decide to buy a second hand ford escort mkII (30 odd years old now or what ever) and you decide to buy a 2008 ford focus. Now essentially aimed at the same target market. My car doesn't give the same milage - in fact it won't run very well at all because I need to convert it to unleaded petrol. Breaking distance at 30 mph is 5000 ft. Your brand new car performs much better than mine in every single way - should I be upset? should I demand that my car perform the same as yours? should I take my car back to ford and demand the air conditioning unit be installed in place of my 'heater'? - remember it was my choice to buy this car. Unfortunately the latest aircon unit would not fit - thats no surprise we are used to new products coming out and replacing old ones all the time - we are also used to the idea that every now and then they have a clean sweep with producst and the backwards compatability is dropped at a certain point 9wait for teh next disasterous windows OS )... As with cars we have a choice as to which browser we use - now should we bend over backwards to accurately mimic the css3 features we can achieve in safari in ie6? should we take 3 times as long to add all the extra html tags, create all the images and write the extra javascript to truely plug the holes??? NO - what we should do is provide a good experience for all concerned - provide a reasonable look for the browser in question. If the browser doesn't support something we use then we could put some instruction in a information panel about the kind of experience the user could have using a different browser and provide links to them. Like the car industry, or any other for that matter, consumer demand is the driving force for improvements. Until professional web developers start to differentiate the experience served up by browsers then there will be no driving force for change. Trying too hard to give those user of moded browsers the same wow factor will do nothing to help move the web forward... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duclet Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I think you should re-read your post and notice that your logic is flawed. You are exactly right, consumer demands is the driving force of everything. Business people in order to actually make a profit, needs to appease these people, especially when they own such a large portion of the market. As you say, we still need to be moving forward though and use the new technologies and such. We can't just ignore all of these people with IE by using truly standardize CSS that Opera and Firefox supports. While at the same time, we can't just keep using old invalid CSS just for IE because they own the market while ignoring the more compliant browsers. We have to have support for both at the very least. While most developers know the limitation of the current browsers, most high up people don't or does not care. They see something in an image and they want what you code to look exactly like that by the pixel. Again, and I am wondering if you people actually read my post or you are just skimming, but as I have said, I have nothing against CSS. I love CSS in fact and that is what I use to build my web site. Take a look at it and you'll see it is not using tables and only CSS (well, mostly). I always encourage people to use CSS to style their web site and keep their code clean. But at the same time, I want people to know that when you start to build your website with purely CSS, known that there are going to be time when you are sitting there cursing at IE or some other browser because it is not behaving as you want it to. CSS is the present and the future and clearly, more developers should start to use it to style their web site instead of using tables and the such. However, until all the web browsers are truly compliant with the standards set by W3C, be ready for some pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToonMariner Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Dulcet - you completely missed the point there didn't you???? My point was that yes you provide the adequate content and style or IE [6] and then use the new fab technology for those that support it... One of my first points was this was a matter of education... When you are faced with a client who thinks you should be able to achieve pixel perfect accuracy in every browser that you know is impossible then they need educating. Point them towards the likes of Zeldman or Clarke and then ask them if they are demanding the best practices to be implemented when building their site or are they bringing an ideology to the table that does NOT help the development of a good, cost effective, user focused site.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haku Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I think you both have entirely valid points, and for the most part aren't contradicting each other per se. Its just a different philosophy on how you program - do you program for the bottom line and nothing more, or do you program for the bottom line and add the extras where you can? There are valid reasons for both, and you have both given them. Its not like one is more right that the other. I still think the basics of CSS are easy though. I picked them up in a week. But using them to their full potential is definitely difficult. Kind of reminds me of Japanese (language) actually (which doesn't matter to you guys, but its a relative point to me). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shank888 Posted April 12, 2008 Author Share Posted April 12, 2008 Okay now that we are arguing about CSS, does sumone wanna help me how to fix it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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