funphp Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I am applying for a job in Las Vegas. This job requires PHP and MySql knowledge, which I have. They asks me for my salary requirements (this is a must). I don't know how much should I tell them. I learned PHP and MySql myself for 2-3 years. I have built some simple dynamic web sites. I believe I am at intermediate level. How much would you ask if you were me? Please note that "I'm open to any offer" is not an option. The employer must know. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namelessNN Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 depends on how expensive it is to live in vegas. i wouldn't go much less than $60k/year unless you are desperate for a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funphp Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 I don't have a degree is computer programming. I also know JavaScript, CSS, C# .NET, Sql Server, MS Access. All self-taught. I never worked for any company as a programmer. 60K sounds good for me, in fact, it is too good. With my profile, do you think I should ask for that much? I'm thinking of 45K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phparray Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 This is a good website for comparing the cost of living between two cities. http://www.bestplaces.net/col/ If Las Vegas is higher than where you live you should ask for more. Also never sell yourself short. A self taught person must have a lot of drive and pure ability to find answers. How much you ask for is a direct reflection of your confidence. Too low is worse than too high. 45K is pretty low for a developer but ultimately you have to decide how much you think you're worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel0 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 It depends on a number of different factors. Living costs, how much money you want when your expenses are paid, how much your time is worth, the general level in that particular area, your competency, etc. If you cost the company more money than what they profit by having you (e.g. if they can get a similarly leveled programmer at a lower wage) then you're a liability and thus disposable. Therefore, you do not want to get greedy and request whatever wage someone else might be able to get. That someone else might be better than you are or just very lucky... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funphp Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Well, you know, I never worked as a programmer so I don't really know how much should I be paid. I just think about my expenses, 45K is good enough to cover it. If I ask for too much, the employer might weight it in as factor against me. But if I ask for too little, he might think I'm "cheap" or some sort of unconfident. :-\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phparray Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Since they will not provide you with a the Job Salary for that position try searching job sites for a similar position in that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funphp Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Well actually they do provide job salary. The recruiter told me at the beginning that the job is offered for 65K. Then when I submit my information, he asked me for my salary requirement. I was confused. I asked him if the employer already offered that much, why would he wants my salary requirement. The recruiter said it's the employer's request. So I told him, anything more than 45K is acceptable for me. Now I am having a second thought. If they offer 65K why would I want to go lower than that? But again I just thought that if there are many candidates on the list, put up a low requirement may help. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel0 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 If they said 65k then just say that you accept their offer. Saves you from making an offer while still getting the 65k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Haven't you ever been to a garage sale or flee market? Just like prices at those places, salaries are negotiated. They say "Okay this is what we're willing to pay". That number is what they feel probably the lowest they can get away with offering, for someone to take their offer seriously. They also have a maximum amount they are willing to pay, and they aren't going to tell you that, because then you'd just ask for that. So they want to know how much you're willing to work for. Maybe you'll do it for $45k and they'll have second thoughts about your abilities, wondering why you'd do it for so cheap (I assure you, they probably did a lot more research on 'fair salaries' than you did; especially since they know what all needs to be done for the job and you don't). Or maybe you'll accept their $65k without a fight, thinking omg I hit the jackpot, and they may or may not have 2nd thoughts about your abilities, seeing as how you jumped on it so quickly. Trick is to do the same thing as them, only in reverse. You're obviously open to the concept of "the more money, the better," so you don't really have a maximum amount of money you're willing to be paid. Since your "minimum" is way below what they are offering, the trick is to not show the desperate eager $$ signs in your eyes. The trick is to get a good deal while making them think they got a good deal. Studies show that employers usually pick a max salary they are willing to pay, and reduce it by 15-25% and make that their initial offer, so you can probably talk them up to 75k-80k if you're good at selling things, namely: yourself. If you're really really confident in yourself and your abilities or at least in your ability to sell snow to Alaskans, you can throw out 90k-95k and negotiate down to that 75k-80k. I wouldn't recommend this unless you are a pro at sales, and considering you're here asking this sort of question, I think it's safe to say you're not. I safer thing to do is start at what you believe their maximum is, and try to meet somewhere in the middle. Don't come out and immediately say "Let's meet in the middle." If you do that at the beginning, they will more than likely know that you were just calculating numbers and going through the motions. You have to be convincing. You shouldn't want to give up money any more than they want to give up more money. Just remember, their "starting" offer is already way more than what you're willing to take, so you're already getting a good deal. You just can't let them know that. Once they up their offer even one time, it's over, you won, because they've openly to your face have gone from generic offer to "this is what we are offering you". All you have to do is play it cool. Don't let the eagerness show. They moved up to around 68k-ish, you moved down to like 73k-ish, whatever. You can go another round if you want, or you can probably safely play the "Let's compromise, 70k" card. You just have to pay attention and judge how it's going. And you need bargaining chips. That's what those pieces of paper from colleges and cert companies are for. They serve no other purpose in your career other than to help you negotiate a job. Since you're self-taught, you're at a disadvantage from the getgo. I hope you have a decent portfolio to point to, or you have a silver tongue and can convince them that you're the answer to their prayers. Which...isn't really that hard of a thing to do. People will react to all kinds of stupid things like big words, winks and nudges, ego strokings, etc... the trick is figuring out what buttons to push. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ober Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 No degree? Take 20K off whatever you think it is worth. No programming job experience? Take off another 5-10K. Seriously. I'm all about "making it on your own", but I'll be damned if some nerd with a few programming books and a few years of "self-teaching" is going to waltz in where I'm working and make what the rest of the schooled developers are making. Formal training does more than teach you programming basics. It teaches you theory and structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Well I'm all for the concept of if you can understand and do the job, who cares what it took you to get to that point. Which is the same philosophy the guys who run the business usually have. You're past experience, schooling, portfolio, etc.. blahblahblah only serves one purpose to them: verification that you aren't blowing smoke out your ass claiming you can do stuff you can't, and thereby wasting everybody's time. I'm not saying that a formal education has no value beyond that. I'm just saying that that value is subjective. Some people benefit from being in a classroom and being shown by someone else how to do something. Some people can learn just as easy from a book or website. I've seen tons and tons of people with college educations in various fields who tbh have no business doing what they are doing. And I've seen tons and tons of people without a college education in whatever field run circles around them. You really shouldn't get upset about the guy next to you, unless his pay clearly doesn't match what he's pumping out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maq Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Studies show that employers usually pick a max salary they are willing to pay, and reduce it by 15-25% and make that their initial offer, so you can probably talk them up to 75k-80k if you're good at selling things, namely: yourself. If you're really really confident in yourself and your abilities or at least in your ability to sell snow to Alaskans, you can throw out 90k-95k and negotiate down to that 75k-80k. I wouldn't recommend this unless you are a pro at sales, and considering you're here asking this sort of question, I think it's safe to say you're not. These numbers seem really high. I know you're going off of the previous posts but sorry, anything over 65k is highly unlikely. With no degree and no formal experience (the two most important elements when reviewing someone's resume for an entry level position) I'd say these expectations are a little too high. Maybe it's different where you live but I doubt it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 These numbers seem really high. I know you're going off of the previous posts but sorry, anything over 65k is highly unlikely. With no degree and no formal experience (the two most important elements when reviewing someone's resume for an entry level position) I'd say these expectations are a little too high. Maybe it's different where you live but I doubt it... You are right, I was just going off the OP's provided number. I do agree that $65-$80k a year does seem rather high for a web dev gig, but tbh I have no idea what the cost of living in Vegas is. Cost of living is a somewhat significant factor in determining a reasonable salary. And I do agree that the OP is probably living a pipe dream if he expects to walk in there and land the job with no formal schooling/degree. Dunno what his portfolio looks like, or if he even has one. If I were the OP, and the employer did not put down $65k as an offer in their advert, I certainly wouldn't start there, given what I'm bringing to the table. But that's the key: the employer put that $65k up in their advert, so the OP would be basing negotiations off that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel0 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I was under the impression that he got the job and they're negotiating salary. Hmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maq Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Due to the title of the thread and this excerpt: Then when I submit my information, he asked me for my salary requirement. I was under the impression that part of applying for the job was to include his minimal/desired salary. Maybe the OP could clarify some of these blurry questions? You are right, I was just going off the OP's provided number. I do agree that $65-$80k a year does seem rather high for a web dev gig, but tbh I have no idea what the cost of living in Vegas is. Cost of living is a somewhat significant factor in determining a reasonable salary. Yes it most certainly does make a significant difference. When I said: Maybe it's different where you live but I doubt it... I didn't mean it like that, but now that I think about it I don't know what I meant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
448191 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 No degree? Take 20K off whatever you think it is worth. No programming job experience? Take off another 5-10K. In some professions, there would be more truth to this. But a degree in Information Technology is only so useful in a Web development position. Having knowledge and experience in the field in question that you can prove by providing a history is much more important. When looking for my first PHP job, having no professional previous experience and no degree or formal education whatsoever, just a ZCE certificate that anyone can get with minimal PHP knowledge, I got offered a senior PHP developer position. Purely based on what knowledge of theory I had shown to have, and this simple to get certificate. I declined because I personally didn't feel I was ready, but just to show that formal education isn't the end of all in this profession. Seriously. I'm all about "making it on your own", but I'll be damned if some nerd with a few programming books and a few years of "self-teaching" is going to waltz in where I'm working and make what the rest of the schooled developers are making. This is not an argument but apparently somehow meant to defend the position of developers with a degree (yourself, I'm guessing). Being a professional PHP developer with no formal education myself this sounds condescending and elitist. What are you afraid of? Formal training does more than teach you programming basics. It teaches you theory and structure. There is no reason theory and structure cannot be self taught. And knowing how to properly apply this knowledge, through experience, is worth way more to employers than a piece of paper that says you have this knowledge. Because whether the theory is self taught or taught at a college or University, bringing it in into practice takes effort and time, time an employer would rather not pay for. I will not debate that some employers will try to use lack of formal education in salary negotiations. Although I haven't experienced it myself, I imagine they will in many cases. Any argument is one, and potentially saves them money. But ultimately they are hiring you to do a job, a degree is no guarantee you will be able to do that job. Verifiable experience and quality of work is not an absolute guarantee either, but comes closer than a piece of paper. No smart employer will turn away an applicant they know to be competent, degree or not. Maybe it works differently in the US. But employers that attribute more value to a degree than verifiable experience and quality of work, apparently value aristocracy over smartly running their company, wherever on the globe they are at. </€0.02> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrg_alpha Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I'm all about "making it on your own", but I'll be damned if some nerd with a few programming books and a few years of "self-teaching" is going to waltz in where I'm working and make what the rest of the schooled developers are making. Formal training does more than teach you programming basics. It teaches you theory and structure. Being self taught (in this context, I include working through practice, books, forums, and perhaps most importantly, other people in the field of interest who are qualified and experienced and offer guidance and wisdom [which in this case can lead back to forums, but I'm speaking of personal friends by example]) can be just as good as those with 'formal' education. This is not to imply that all people who are self taught ARE as good.. Perhaps it's more the exception than the norm, but people who are self taught could have been coding for many more years, been surrounded by better skilled people (friends who perhaps even exceed school professors, which from what I hear is not unreasonable), and worked harder than those who attended say a one or two year college course as an exmaple (I realise this may vary from school to school). We're talking web development.. not someone applying to be a doctor here. If one works hard enough, and learns from proper documentation, feedback from others that are very knowledgable and good ol' trial and error, nothing stops them from being 'on par' with someone with a piece of paper... While John Carmack, lead coder of ID Software did attend university for a few semesters (I'm not sure what he was majoring in), he dropped out to pursue a career in programming. As a result of being largely [or completely, depending on what he was studying] self taugh (through the context mentioned above), he rose to become one the best coders around, often pioneering programming concepts (and pretty much single handedly pioneered the first person shooter genre - Think Wolfenstien 3D, Doom and Quake...[Quake was a huge breakthrough for him due to working with his mentor, Michael Abrash]). So imagine this guy coming into an office surrounded by a bunch of 'schooled' coders.. It boils down to hard fought experience through the right and knowledgable channels. He is indeed the exception rather than the norm. But point being, don't automatically rule out self learners as people of lesser skill than those with formal eductation (and I am only speaking in terms of experience here.. not what leverage a degree can bring you for employment by example). I wouldn't be surprised to see teens in basements that can wrap serious circles around college grads just from a creed that carries an 'eat-breath-and-sleep coding' mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phparray Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 448191 - Very well put. I must say some of the comments left of this thread left by others have been rash and demoralizing to the self taught coders. Surprising coming from a forum dedicated to helping people learn PHP; many I'm sure who are self taught, considering PHP 101 is not a college class I've ever heard of. In my personal and professional experience I have seen many individuals both self taught and college educated. The truth in measure is who can get the job done degree or no degree. Unfortunately some employers do choose to use a degree as a filter. While most companies especially in the Web Development world will include a 4 year degree or equivalent work experience required in job ads. This is a much better approach. Someone devoted to self learning for 4 years and an equally impressive portfolio certainly is every bit as qualified for the position and deserves the same salary. Not to derail this thread any more than it has. I leave you with one last thought. The average raise is roughly 3% - 5% a year. With todays tough economic times it would not surprise me if to hear of companies putting a freeze on raises or reducing the normal increase. Consider your goal and how long it will take you to get there. Do you want to make 50K, 60, or even 80? How long should it take you to get there at 4% a year without changing jobs? How many times do you want to change jobs? If you can put some numbers to these questions and consider what others have said you will come up with the right number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrg_alpha Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I must say some of the comments left of this thread left by others have been rash and demoralizing to the self taught coders. Surprising coming from a forum dedicated to helping people learn PHP; Not just this thread. The thing you'll rapidly learn is that on this site, you'll get brash, condescending, and downright confrontational remarks from some mods and admins for perhaps a myriad of reasons ranging from young immaturity to ego power trips and the like. You learn to basically either just ignore such commentaries or engage them with some stern no-bull sensability. Sure, they're knowledgable and helpful.. but sometimes at the price of comments that would be otherwise unacceptable in other forum websites run by more mature and level-headed people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbin Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Uhhh.... I don't think any of the mods are under 30 lol. Could be wrong though. As to the degree thing, I forgot about it until I saw this thread, but I wonder if this guy (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Computer_Science_III) ever finished his degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
448191 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Not just this thread. The thing you'll rapidly learn is that on this site, you'll get brash, condescending, and downright confrontational remarks from some mods and admins for perhaps a myriad of reasons ranging from young immaturity to ego power trips and the like. You learn to basically either just ignore such commentaries or engage them with some stern no-bull sensability. Sure, they're knowledgable and helpful.. but sometimes at the price of comments that would be otherwise unacceptable in other forum websites run by more mature and level-headed people. Lets not turn this into a riot shall we? If you have an issue with a comment a staff member made you think is unacceptable or inappropriate, take it up with that staff member. I assure you clashes between staff and members are discussed, but they aren't near as plentiful as you make it seem. In any case, this thread is now locked. First and foremost, these forums are dedicated to learning, teaching, and discussing PHP. While the Misc. board exists to allow some "random" discussion, the amount of discussion not directly related to PHP should be kept somewhat at bay. If you would like to further discuss your criticism of the staff, maybe providing some concrete examples and suggestions for things you would like to see different, you know how to work the PM system. I assure you any concrete issues and/or suggestions you make will be discussed. We can't do much with a vague impression. Thanks. Uhhh.... I don't think any of the mods are under 30 lol. Not quite. Most of us are in our twenties, one younger, some (a lot) older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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