questions about the path of a php programmer

[talper]

hey,

im 21 years old, and as carear path, as i dont have options at the moment joining the university, i decided to become a php programmer.

 

i know the sources for learning online/with books, but after i tried learning by my own, and was finding it kinda hard at the moment, the frame my own learnings, and stick with it for a long time, i decided to take a cource while learning as much i can by my own, with this psycological frame i hope will help me.

 

 

i wanted to ask, if q php developer, should know css inside out?

while working at companies, he is the one that styling the system he wrote, or just write it as plain graphiclly as he can, and let the "designer" to his job?

 

for some reason, i find css annoying ass hell(is it just me or its a wired change for programmers who know c or php for example to learn?), but it may be because i dont understand the more advaned stuff yet.

 

so is there a difference between "web developer" and "php programmer"?

i know a little php and in projects with multiple files, that i saw, there was very little html/css.

are there php programmers, that know only php very good and some html, with little css for example?

 

when companies asks for a php man, they want him to know html/css very good also?

 

 

another question is, how can a guy learning php with no experience, can start a job as a php programmer? are there much companies who take a person without experience?

 

thanks.

[PugJr]

This should go in misc. not php help. PHP help is for questions and issues about the PHP language, not anything and everything related to PHP such as getting a degree for it.

[elis]

You could freelance without a degree. However, from my (little) experience, it seems that most companies that are actually employing someone want at least a bachelor's degree in CS or something similar.

That's not in stone, of course. There are always exceptions.

 

As for knowing CSS, you should understand the gist of it. You don't need to be a CSS expert, but you should be able to write in CSS if required.

[talper]

im not from us(forgot to mention, but its either that or my bad english is due to bad us education system (: )

 

but no, im from israel, so "bachelor degree" isnt something i know of here.

thats why its so late(21) as ive been in the army.

 

i know css, yet for some reason find the website building/desgin itself kinda annoying for some reason.

if i want to become php programmer(and not "web programmer" or is it the same??), i should first and before, love website building? (html/css/js)??

or with a big knowladge of php, big precents of the code(lets say 80-90) will be wrriten in php?

 

so is "website programmer" and "php programmer" the same?

thanks again.

[elis]

Ah, I see. I don't know how hiring people in that field would work in Israel, then if that's where you're currently located. You might want to shuffle through a few Israel-central job search websites and see what the typical requirements are for your career choice.

 

If you're looking for a job in the U.S., then a college education is probably going to be preferred. Whether or not it will be a hard requirement is up to the individual employer.

 

In regards to designing, I hate web designing; I probably wouldn't do it if designing were required. So no, web designing is not necessary (though I'm sure some employers would favor someone who could/would do both.)

You do need to know basic HTML/CSS though, i.e. if you're running a loop in PHP and they want the results printed out in bold - then you should know the HTML bold tag or know how to create a table. The more you know won't hurt you.

 

In regards to actually designing a site in Photoshop or Paint Shop (whichever is their poison of choice) and then coding it in HTML, and then making sure it's valid --  that isn't usually part of your job.

 

 

[talper]

thanks elis,

i didnt meant cutting the photoshop sketch, but even programming a forum.

 

you said that a -php- programmer should know basic html/css, and you gave a  very basic example.

my question was, if a php programmer should know html/css in order to do bigger "desiginig projects" like this forum(just the design) for example, more "clean" sites i mean, like portals main pages and stuff.

 

how often a php programmer work with writing html page to a full professional site from scrach?

 

is it possible that a php programmer, will write thousands of php code, with only a few html/css basic code? is php related in close blood to html/css in order to see any results on the screen? can it sustain without those 2?(or the first.....actually)?

 

thanks.

[corbin]

Well the whole purpose of using PHP in a web environment is [usually] to have it output HTML/CSS/JS.

[chmpdog]

If you arnt interested in learning html/css you might want to learn a more logic based language, such as java

[DarkSuperHero]

I agreee with chmpdog, PHP is practically Best friends for life with HTML, although it can do without it, the only reason someone would need to hire a php person, would be to use them on a project based for the web. Unless your doing programming from scratch like building a framework ect. your going to need some HTML knoledge, since sometimes they can both be mixed in depending on the programmers style...

[RussellReal]

Listen, I've done plenty jobs in this field, worked with graphic designers, doubled as designer and developer, and all I can say is.. LEARN HTML and CSS.. They are not hard WHATSOEVER, and you will always need them.

 

You will never have a job where someone designs their layout around your php, you're always coding your php around their layout.. So most of the time you will take the photoshop pdf, then you will cut it up into a million tiny pieces (like in Willy Wonka) and then you will glue it all back together again, nestled neatly around your PHP code.

 

So, if you want to go anywhere in the web development field, don't worry so much about your graphical skills, as you'll get some guy who will draw up your layout.. It is YOUR responsibility to give it life.

[chmpdog]

yep I would just learn the works if you are going to learn php

[Axeia]

You'd have a hard time finding job if you don't know HTML/CSS well.

 

They only way I see it working is when you work on a huge application and are just handed a class diagram to make it work. But even for this knowing some html and css would most likely come in handy if only to double check the output in a more readable format.

And I doubt in such an environment 'home taught'  would be good enough to make it passed the job interview.

 

Might just be some basic thing you're having troubling with wrapping your head around as CSS is as logical and easy as it can be, I learned a lot from using <a href='http://www.topstyle4.com/'>topstyle</a> myself. As it got me familiar with attributes I didn't even know the existence of.

[Daniel0]

If you arnt interested in learning html/css you might want to learn a more logic based language, such as java

 

Java isn't logic programming, but object oriented or imperative. The difference is enormous. Declarative paradigms (e.g. logic) and imperative paradigms (e.g. OOP) are often considered contrasts.

 

As a matter of fact, DSLs like HTML/CSS are declarative in the sense that they describe what things are instead of the means by which you get them to look that way.

 

Your post doesn't make much sense.

[RichardRotterdam]

As in many threads that I read in which some asks if learning a certain web language/programming language is required, I miss the motivation. In your case, why do you want to learn PHP? If you want to develop websites then certainly knowing HTML and CSS is necessary. What job is it that you seek?

 

so is there a difference between "web developer" and "php programmer"?

Is there a difference between a bird and a chicken? All chickens are birds but not all birds are chickens (even if I call all birds chickens). I think it's safe to say that the majority of webdevelopers know more then one language and not just PHP.

 

Maybe you meant:"Is there a difference between a webdeveloper and a webdesigner?"

 

In that case there certainly is. The webdesigner specialty is usually CSS and HTML along with some drawing tool such as photoshop. There is even differences between webdesigners that specializes on usability where others are specialized in the looks. The webdeveloper knows how to make it work(to put it very short its way more then that). Do note that my description is very compact and simplified there is way more to it.

 

As for knowing a bit of both worlds, even though the webdeveloper and webdesigner play different roles, they both need to communicate with each other and it's a good thing when you both speak the same language.

[DarkSuperHero]

Maybe you meant:"Is there a difference between a webdeveloper and a webdesigner?"

[...]

As for knowing a bit of both worlds, even though the webdeveloper and webdesigner play different roles, they both need to communicate with each other and it's a good thing when you both speak the same language.

 

I must say I agree with this and other thing said here also, at the moment, Im teamed up with a designer who creates the clients vision, and I bring it to life through PHP/HTML/CSS and sometimes flash... its definitely important to be able to do more than just one thing....

 

Going on what Dj Kat said, what is the motivation that you hold for learning PHP ? I recall my very first attempt at PHP was because I hated having to hardcode all the pages in HTML...hahahaha...although it soon evolved into much more... :-)

[RussellReal]

Haha, I first learned php because I wanted to make Parsers in PHP for my mIRC scripts, rather than parsing it with mIRC's sockets.. which sucked..

 

But now I loved php so much that I completely ditched mIRC