Education

[Daniel0]

Again, I'm not saying that the disciplines are the same.  They are not.  What I am saying is that the term 'Computer Science' is often used as a catch-all term by universities to describe whatever programming degree they offer.

 

Good. Well, then we agree. I think it's wrong that some universities don't make a distinction though.

[ignace]

If the university/college has great teachers which are passionate about what they teach and have a great background in what they teach, then go for it. I've attended 2 college's none of them worked for me. I always felt like a QA-agent for students: correct teachers when they were wrong, why they were, and how it then should be done instead. Like: Why globals are bad; Why $password = md5($password) is weak; The CSS property "position" does not have a "right" value; That IN() can be used instead of looping; str_replace() CAN take an array as search parameter; stdClass is not the base class of every created class; ..

[xcoderx]

till 2007 i was not even a 12th passed student but i got a job in a online media company for i knew and fit their requirements on updating a site. im no profsissional in coding but they taught me and i learned alot in that job, i worked for 3 long years nonstop and i was earning 9000INR a month. whatever it is i say its not just that degree that always matter for sometimes how u give and interview matters more, i was lucky so they hired me, but now im on break and came back home to complete my studies for i realized one things education does matter to grow more. and along with that im also doin my programing course too :-) one day im gona be a guru in freaks hehehe :-)

[Brian W]

Wow, thanks guys for the large amount of information. The comparison of SE and CS is even valuable to me and maybe other people looking for information on that topic.

As for my plan, its the freelance direction.

I worked for a year at a IT company that offered everything from PC repairs to Web Application Design. I was hired on for the web side and learned a lot while there. I left the position and now have been building up a client basis. Mostly at the moment I am focusing on building a strong portfolio, which as most all of you know pays shit. Unless I'm mistaken, working for yourself always has a slow start but in the end is what I want.

Even if freelance wasn't my direction, many job posts ask for bachelors||equivalent experience (2-3 years???) and even more often I see them asking for 5+ years experience. I'm coming up on 2 years working experience in programming PHP, 4 in JS+CSS+HTML.

From what I've read here and what I've seen in the real world, it would appear that the paper is simply to show employers you have the experience but so does work history/portfolios. With freelancing, you could wipe your ass with the degree... toilet paper would feel better and is cheaper.

 

My plan A was to work my way into the industry, they want me to go about it differently because they think it is *required* in order to be successful. I told her mom about the Zen certificate, she got excited, then I told her about how a guy with that certificate hired me to fix his code... she was a little put off.

Can I support their daughter? Now that is a good question for me. Right now, no. In the future, I think so. Can anyone right now even with a good paying job really be confident is the future (not just in the current economy)?

 

For the tenured vets of the freelance programming world, is it uncommon for someone in their first year of freelancing to not make enough money to support someone else?

[ignace]

For the tenured vets of the freelance programming world, is it uncommon for someone in their first year of freelancing to not make enough money to support someone else?

 

Some do not exceed to support even themselves in their entire freelancing career.

[Brian W]

First, meant Zend in my last post. Didn't get a chance to correct until now (3:24 am after watching Iron Man 2).

 

The fact that many programmers do not succeed is likely due to them personally. I knew a guy who was a real wiz in programming, pointed me the right way on a few things... he had horrible personal skill as well as poor hygiene. He always wondered why he couldn't get work, I told him a few times to show up clean and well dressed even to meet a client (let alone potential employer) but he seemed to never do it. Besides him, I've known a few other good programmers with a lot of experience who I wouldn't hire for one reason or another and it seemed other people agreed with me.

As for me, I may have some quarks that may put off potential clients... but nothing I have ever been told about even by my current client basis. So, I feel confident I could make it as a web developer. If I don't make websites, I'm finding some other career that someone could point out a large number of people who never make enough money support themselves or family.

[ignace]

I told him a few times to show up clean and well dressed even to meet a client

 

AND BE ON TIME. Damn, I know 3 freelancers and 2 of them have time issues. Once in a while I meet with those 2 and they are ALWAYS late, when a client calls they tell them to meet them in one hour. Right, one hour later we are still talking and they probably even forgot about the meeting with the client.

[.josh]

that's because we can't be bothered with stupid things like "time". 

 

Foolish Mortals.

[tomfmason]

I have almost no formal education to speak of - GED and certified to manage remote call centers(lmfao). Even with no education and being completely self taught I have never really had a problem finding good paying work.

[cags]

I have almost no formal education to speak of - GED and certified to manage remote call centers(lmfao). Even with no education and being completely self taught I have never really had a problem finding good paying work.

 

What's the secret?

[tomfmason]

I have almost no formal education to speak of - GED and certified to manage remote call centers(lmfao). Even with no education and being completely self taught I have never really had a problem finding good paying work.

 

What's the secret?

 

Tell people what they want to hear and make sure you put in the time to do the work better than anyone else.

[co.ador]

I don't want to say that going to school is a mistake specially for computers in any of its branches SE, Web developement etc... But the high amount of money to pay to this school, which in a degree are there to get some money out of you, Teach you some of the actual knowledge you need to learn. I also when you realize around your sophomore year that you can do better if you are in your own but then you see the loans you have taken, which force you to stay in school and finish it. That could be hard.. I think there is a great satisfaction in learning the things in your own.... 

[ignace]

@cags

 

The secret:

 

Tell people what they want to hear ...

 

The catch:

 

... and make sure you put in the time to do the work better than anyone else.

[roopurt18]

My father was a general contractor and he primarily built custom cabinets for homes.  He was a one man shop which meant he had to find clients, nurture relationships, and then put in the necessary time to get the actual work done.  It's really a two person job unless you're established to the point that clients are coming to you.

 

This is where working for a company or at least with a partner who specializes in the business aspect of things can help.  They'll wade through the bullshit that I don't have patience for to get the work orders in.

 

Just be prepared to work a lot unless you land a really good gig.

[Daniel0]

But the high amount of money to pay to this school, [...]

 

I don't pay any money for attending the university, so that's not a universally applicable argument.

 

You're also assuming that money is the most important thing in your post, but that isn't really true either (for most people at least).

[Brian W]

Money to go isn't necessarily a problem. But I feel that focusing my time on learning more languages and get more clients is time better spent then getting a degree. I looked into SE and that looks like the better direction to go than CS imo, but I still don't think it would make me do better than if I spent the 2-3 years building my business.

[Zane]

Is it just a coincidence that this topic came up on The Day of my graduation ceremony?

 

Regardless of the ceremonial bullshit, getting a degree (in nearly anything) is just another step towards something.  From my perspective of it all, the "going to college" part of it all is pretty much a persons way of either getting away from their normal unproductive life to better themselves... or getting away solely to get an achievement of some sort.

 

What it all boils down too is...

 

What can you do right now... at this point in your lifetime?  Do you honestly want to go out there, start a business, be bombarded with "business stress", promote a reputation for yourself, become a local figure of society...etc, etc.  If that's what you want, you have no college degree(s) and know that you are perfectly capable enough already... then go for it!

 

I just spent the last 6 years getting 2 Associates degrees.  Which would normally take a person 2 or 3 years to get, but the fact of the matter is that I now have something to show for it.  Even if it is an arbitrary piece of paper... I can tell a person, "Hey. I have 2 degrees in exactly what you need done."  I don't have to sell myself on abilities or pull out a portfolio or any of that garbage.

 

Though I may be overstating that a bit, my point is... Having one degree in anything can shorten up a resume pretty drastically.  And a short and quick resume is exactly what everyone wants.

 

As for your question about programmers not succeeding after "programming college"... Well, they should try something else out.  Just because you go to school for programming doesn't mean you're debited to it for the rest of your life.  Hell, you could get a Master's Doctorate in underwater basketweaving and still end up being the best damn programmer in the world.  College teaches you how to focus your knowledge on something more than just... learn stuff; it also teaches you a great deal about the art of procrastination.

 

If college isn't for you... you'll know it within the first year.  When you get your "report card" full of Fs or Ds.  If college isn't for you.. and you don't have your parents forcing your way through it financially and emotionally... you'll find yourself in some kind of job.  It's inevitable.  You also may like that job.. you might go from an enrolled Aquatic Biology major to head chef at the most popular restaurant in town... just from starting at a dishwasher for beer money and finding out you like food and restaurants and such.  You might even consider building an underwater restaurant; assuming you pursued the aquatics courses and learned some stuff.

 

[roopurt18]

I've got something else to add to this thread.  Remember earlier that I said a degree guarantees nothing but may grant options.  Now consider the following:

 

1) The world is gravitating more and more towards one that favors educated people with certificates.  Sure the world really boils down to who you know and their station, but if you're network is small a degree can be a boost.

2) It's infinitely easier to go get that degree now while you're young than it is when you're middle aged with a wife, kids, and mortgage to support.  I've seen several men with families struggling to get degrees later in life; it really takes a toll on them.

3) If you plan on having kids, then that degree is a great example to them.  Because I have a degree, when my kids are giving me shit about not wanting to do their homework I can point to the degree on my wall and say, "Why do you have to do your homework?  Because that's what you do.  I got where I am in life because of my degree and I got that degree by coming home and doing my homework.  Now go do your damn homework."  Of course I'm lying about doing my homework, but they won't know that!

 

My advice is to get that degree now while it's easy and make sure it's usable after you graduate.

[ignace]

I can point to the degree on my wall

 

If I remember correctly you studied for game developer but ended up as a web developer, that you in the end enjoyed more then what you studied for. Nevertheless your degree hasn't landed you a game developers job.

 

What I'm saying is that it may be not the best example to give your kids.

[roopurt18]

My desire to go into game development did spark my interest in computer programming.  But I quickly became more interested in programming than I did game development.  True I had the dream of being a game developer for many years, from about 1995 to 2005 or 2006, but I'd decided a long time ago if I couldn't program games I'd program something else.  Hardware, CAD programs, microwaves, cell phones, whatever; I like problem-solving with computers and I've known that for a long time now.

 

I didn't go to college to learn how to be a game developer though.  Like many in this thread I knew I could learn anything I needed to on my own.

 

I went to college to avoid the fate of my father, who I watched struggle to run his own business for a decade.  He struggled because he didn't have the proper work ethic or mind to run his own business.  But he also had a family to support and couldn't take time to go back to school or learn the necessary skills to get an office job.  Meanwhile his brother and sister, both college educated, had steady jobs, steady income, steady hours, paid vacations, weekends off, and worked in air conditioned offices on the hottest summer days while I helped my dad install cabinets and melted in the heat.  I went on jobs with him from the time I was 5 or 6 through high school and even a few here and there during college.  I decided "fuck this" a long time before most kids even think about college.

 

So no, I didn't go to college to be a game developer.  I went to college because I associate not having a degree with working crazy hours, not being able to provide for your family, always telling people I don't know when I can pay them, having to settle for Top Ramen for a week at a time, wearing shit clothes, only going out when there's coupons, constantly bartering for shit, always getting the shit end of the stick, having to ask family members for financial help, marital arguments, etc.  I associate having a degree with coasting through life.  That's sure what my aunt and uncle seemed to do.  I had three consecutive next-door neighbors that were computer programmers with degrees that looked like they were coasting through life; my dad worked 13 or 14 hour days on Sunday in the summer heat while those guys sat in lawn chairs and drank ice cold beer.  I went to college because I saw the success it brought others.  I also saw that our world is moving towards one that requires a degree for just about every job under the sun.  Tie this together with the fact that I plan to have kids some day and I wanted to set a good example for them.

 

I'm not meaning to gloat, but I'm faring pretty well in this shit storm of an economy.  I plan to fare just as well, or better, when I have children.  And I also plan to make sure they associate all that I provide or that we obtain as a family as originating from that degree on the wall.

 

To anyone that thinks 4 years of their time to obtain a higher education may be difficult or asking too much of them, I scoff.  Try having a wife and kids expecting you to provide for them when you don't have the means.  See how difficult that is after 30 or 40 years, if your marriage makes it that long.

 

I'm not saying things work out equally for everyone though.  Every person is allowed to gamble with their own life as they see fit as long as it doesn't endanger others.  I'm not a gambling man though and I always try to stack the odds in my favor.  I had an English teacher in high school that always said, "Set yourself up for success, not stress."  How right she is.

 

Now having said all that, college used to be for the elite and, at the very least, intelligent.  It seems to me that college has become more and more accessible in recent years to the detriment of the worth of a college education.  I know I was consistently disappointed by my peers in college, having believed when I arrived there I'd be surrounded by the best of the best.  "These are the brightest kids in America?  We're so !@#$ed."

 

(edit for typos)

[ignace]

"These are the brightest kids in America?  We're so !@#$ed."

 

I know how you feel

[V]

There are no jobs anyhow so there's no point spending money for a degree in most fields. Also why get a degree and work for commissions when you can earn all the revenue from your own business? Spend college money on a business license.

[Philip]

There are no jobs anyhow so there's no point spending money for a degree in most fields. Also why get a degree and work for commissions when you can earn all the revenue from your own business? Spend college money on a business license.

 

Ehh, I beg to differ. There are a plethora of jobs out there, people just either aren't looking in the right places, looking for the wrong thing (we all hate our jobs at some point... no point in spending years being unemployed trying to find your dream job when you don't meet the qualifications of it), or just get lazy and give up and blame others & the government when a job isn't just handed to them.

[Daniel0]

There are no jobs anyhow so there's no point spending money for a degree in most fields.

 

That's not true where I live. On the contrary, it's usually the people without an education (or corresponding professional experience) who have difficulty finding a job over here.

 

Also why get a degree and work for commissions when you can earn all the revenue from your own business?

 

Getting a degree in something doesn't exclude you from starting your own business.

 

Spend college money on a business license.

 

Starting a business is free over here, so are educations.

 

 

Funny how some people thing that the situation they are in apply to everybody else in the world as well.

[tomfmason]

 

Starting a business is free over here, so are educations.

 

 

That makes me want to immigrate