Hover-over ads for dog food? Really?

[ManiacDan]

Is anyone else getting those intolerable hover-over ads on every page of PHPFreaks now?  It seems to have happened over this past weekend.  For instance, right now on this page I see:

We are constantly trying to improve PHP Freaks and these forums, so feel free to go to the PHPFreaks Comments/Suggestions board and point out anything you'd like to see different!

Each underlined word above, when hovered over, causes an ad for dog treats to pop up on my computer.  This happens in all 4 browsers I have installed, whether I'm logged in or not.

 

We just had the "intrusive ad" conversation on DevShed.  That's why I became a member here.  As a professional web developer, I understand the difficulties of running a website on ad revenues.  But you know what?  This is a technical forum.  I'm here to give advice on PHP.  How is PHP related to Nylabone?  It isn't. These ads are overly intrusive, annoying, and probably aren't giving you much money, considering that they have nothing to do with the contents of the page.

 

Maybe a donations system, or actual context-sensitive ads would help.  If my screen is obscured by another ad for dog food while I'm trying to type about PHP, my wandering may recommence.

 

-Dan

[Philip]

Interesting, I'm not seeing those nor the normal AdSense ads. I wonder if Eric is changing something again.

 

And I'm with ya on that. I hate, and I mean hate inline ads like that. They are on the same level as popunder ads.

[.josh]

I don't see the text links like you described, even when logged out (even refreshing until I see the same message).  My guess is someone was experimenting with it and then ditched it, maybe even for the same reason(s) you listed. 

 

But anyways...

 

As a web developer, you should know how the ad scripts work, at least, in principle.  They are 3rd party scripts, and places that implement them have little or no control over what ads are displayed. 

 

And you can make donations.  Please refer to the have you been helped here sticky in this forum.  You can even donate specifically through the forum, doing a paid subscription, and it will remove the ads altogether.  Go to your profile and click on the Actions > "paid subscriptions" link in the left menu.

 

 

But as far as ads in general... even if it was littered with "irrelevant" ads...so what?  You come to a free site looking for a free service, so you will get what you "pay" for.  You are only "allowed" to expect things and make "demands/threats/etc..."  if you are actually giving something in return. 

 

Bitching about something like this on a site like this is...like a bum who goes to the homeless shelters asking for handouts and then getting all pissy if he doesn't like the food he is served, or the coat he was given for free has a few wear and tears or doesn't match the other free clothes he was given.

 

As a professional web developer, you should understand all this.  If you want quality service in a certain format...you have to pay for it. 

 

You claim you are a professional web developer, but all I see is someone who decided to give it a go and slapped a title on himself, but has little or no actual experience in that world. 

 

Here is some advice to you: Instead of bitching and making "threats" to leave... just say thank you when/if you actually get some help.  If that is not good enough for you, then buck up and stop hitting up food banks and go to a real grocery store.

 

p.s. - I too hate text ads like that.  On a technical site I'd rather have all text links be pointing to manual entries etc... but again, free site, get what you pay for, blahblah.

[Adam]

@Crayon Violent

 

I've seen some of ManiacDan's posts in the past and I doubt he's here looking for help - "asking for handouts" as you put it. I see the ads myself, 5 in your last post, and they are very obtrusive. I think ManiacDan has every right to bitch if he's contributing to the community, as does everyone else who benefits this website.

[.josh]

hmm.. I misread his post.  I thought he was saying he was here to GET advice.  Yes I do agree that if you are here contributing then you do have a right to bitch about stuff like that..to an extent.  This IS still a free site....

 

...and I dunno why I don't see any of them.  I don't see them even when logged out. 

[.josh]

Again, sorry ManiacDan, I misread your post.

 

Okay after clearing my cookies, cache etc.. and logging out, I do see them now. 

[ManiacDan]

@Crayon:  Don't worry, it takes more than a misunderstanding to make me hate you forever.  You're still invited to my birthday party.

 

If the admins of this site (whoever they may be) have signed a contract with a third-party ad serving company that gives them no control over the content or frequency of the ads, that's a bad business decision.  You heard it first right here, straight from the keyboard of a professional web developer with a degree in IT management.  (I'm also a senior architect for a profitable ad-supported company with 20,000,000 users)

 

Also, as a quick thought experiment (for Crayon and others): who are the "customers" of this site? 

Are they the small mod team, who come to this site to moderate the forums without any intention of ever clicking on any of the ads? 

Are they the small group of professionals who come to this site to provide help without any intention of clicking the ads?

Or are they the "freeloaders" who are using this help forum to receive help?  Yes, it seems greedy for them to come on here and say "I'm getting something for nothing and I'm annoyed!" However, that's not what they're saying. They're saying "I'm agreeing to view your ads and possibly click them if they're relevant to my interest. In exchange, you provide me with the information I seek.  Your ads are now costing me more than what I believe the information is worth."  You provide a service, they pay for that service by consuming it.  It's a difficult concept, but it's how network television works.

 

Much different interpretation, isn't it? Serving ads is a balancing act.  Once your ads start covering the content, you lose that balance.

 

-Dan

 

PS - Yes, I'm being a jerk above, and I'm doing it on purpose.  DevShed lost the fight to retain their customers and I actually like PHPFreaks. I hope someone with decision making powers reads this and the ads disappear and are replaced with reasonable, context-sensitive ads like google ads.  If I happen to be the victim of random testing and the future ads will be related to the words that trigger them, I'll still be annoyed that mousing over a paragraph runs the risk of hiding that paragraph.

[phpfreak]

Hey folks, sorry about the "Dog Treat Ads"  - that bothers me as well, I'm working on disabling them now and hopefully we won't see any more of that nonsense here.. I was really hoping by switching to a different ad provider we could find some more relevant ads than before...  I'm working on it, nothing is permanent, so please be patient.

 

 

[ManiacDan]

Hey, it's THE PHPFreak!

 

Sorry if I was harsh, but we've been having this very same argument on devshed (link) for MONTHS and nobody seems to notice that it's killing the forum over there.

 

Was the dog food simply a test, or just really terrible context sensitivity?  Normally this kind of ad is related to whatever word it decides to bind to, so if I say "email" the ad will be for Outlook or something, but there were 4 different dog food ads all binding to random words. 

 

If you need assistance, PM me. 

 

-Dan

[phpfreak]

Hey, it's THE PHPFreak!

 

Sorry if I was harsh, but we've been having this very same argument on devshed (link) for MONTHS and nobody seems to notice that it's killing the forum over there.

 

Was the dog food simply a test, or just really terrible context sensitivity?  Normally this kind of ad is related to whatever word it decides to bind to, so if I say "email" the ad will be for Outlook or something, but there were 4 different dog food ads all binding to random words. 

 

If you need assistance, PM me. 

 

-Dan

 

Hi Dan!

 

Well, it was just a really bad context sensitivity in my opinion.. I switched us over to AdBrite with a Google Adsense backup banner and last night it wasn't showing any inline (text link) ads.. I didn't realize until this morning that it was showing Dog Treat ads.  I was not impressed with this and have disabled it..  Bummer.

 

I understand what devshed and other sites are going through right now. With Social Networks sucking in all the traffic these days, we have to find better ways to keep our sites funded.  Adsense has been mostly irrelevant lately and I'm very disappointed with that.  I'm giving AdBrite a try and I'm also welcome to any suggestions for other non-intrusive but relevant ads. Please let me know what you have in mind!

 

Thanks!

[ManiacDan]

That thread on devshed is worth a read (and there's a link in that thread to another devshed thread about ads), but you're right, there isn't a clear cut solution.

 

I like the idea of narrowing the page somewhat and using sidebar ads.  Last.fm and IGN both do "background ads" which appear to be wrapping the site content.  The sides of my screen are blue gradients.  It wouldn't kill me if they were ads for Norton.  It would annoy me if they were flashing, noisy ads for spam software (hint: devshed did this).

 

I don't know, honestly.  While you're right that social networks are stealing all your traffic, that also means that your bandwidth bills are lower.  With lower traffic, can you optimize the forums and kill a few servers from your cluster?  How many do you run?  I've run sites as large as 400 enormous machines, and as small as a single VPS. 

 

-Dan

[Philip]

I dunno which prefer more... irrelevant ads about dog food inline, or full page ads that auto play videos.

 

This is what I got a few minutes ago:

http://i56.tinypic.com/99gahy.jpg

[salathe]

This is what I got a few minutes ago:

http://i56.tinypic.com/99gahy.jpg

 

Ouch. (I'm so glad that I've not experienced any of these advertising changes/tests!)

[ManiacDan]

Those full-page takeover ads are exactly what got me to start searching for an alternative to devShed.  The business model and the customer base is all wrong for something like this.  This isn't IGN or Salon, people come here to participate, not to consume.  Even those that do come here to consume might get to 12 threads before they find what they're looking for.  12 takeover ads is 11 too many for someone like that.

 

-Dan

[phpfreak]

The takeover ads are only suppose to be displayed once every 6 hours and after 3 page impressions. Again, something I'm testing and frankly it's not worth the hassle.

[phpfreak]

takeover ads are now gone... What's getting depressing is that each time we try something new, nothing but complaints come about it.  At some point, we're all going to have to find a happy medium where #1 this site can make enough to sustain itself and help for future growth in development and #2 The complaining and bitching about Advertisements stops.  Either way, doesn't seem like we can find one, so what are we suppose to do?

 

[ManiacDan]

At some point, we're all going to have to find a happy medium where #1 this site can make enough to sustain itself and help for future growth in development and #2 The complaining and bitching about Advertisements stops.

People love to complain, it's how they define reality, just as The Matrix.

 

Seriously though, the sure-fire way to get someone to complain about an ad is to have the ad prevent them from viewing the content.  Interstitials, takeovers, and hover-ads all obscure the content, and you get the most complaints. 

 

There aren't very many entirely ad-supported sites left. Penny-Arcade is the best example (though they now have a store).  Their ad policy is simple:  They run non-ugly ads for products that they themselves would recommend to friends. I don't know how well that would work here, but the ad slots would definitely be more valuable if it was "recommended by our team" rather than "check out some completely random blinking thing."

 

Sidebar ads and ads between the posts seem to be your best bet, and you shouldn't get complaints as long as they don't flash, play noise, or advertise for something scammy. 

 

You can also try some kind of "subscription" model, but forums seem ill-suited for that.  The repeat visitors are all adding value to your site, while the one-time visitors are the ones who get something of value from it.  It's backward of the normal subscription model.

 

-Dan

[Alex]

You can also try some kind of "subscription" model, but forums seem ill-suited for that.  The repeat visitors are all adding value to your site, while the one-time visitors are the ones who get something of value from it.  It's backward of the normal subscription model.

There are paid subscriptions already: http://www.phpfreaks.com/forums/profile/?area=subscriptions

[KevinM1]

takeover ads are now gone... What's getting depressing is that each time we try something new, nothing but complaints come about it.  At some point, we're all going to have to find a happy medium where #1 this site can make enough to sustain itself and help for future growth in development and #2 The complaining and bitching about Advertisements stops.  Either way, doesn't seem like we can find one, so what are we suppose to do?

 

 

Eric, the problem has been that the ads have either:

 

1. Broken the forum layout (the first batch).

 

or

 

2. Obscured content (this batch).

 

It doesn't seem like there's any real testing going on, and each attempt has negatively impacted the user experience at a fundamental level, at least initially.  This is compounded by a lack of communication from your end.  This is a community - let users know that you're experimenting with ads and that their UX input is valuable in shaping the way ads will ultimately be displayed here.  That way, it's not jarring to your user base, and they're not scratching their heads thinking, "What the hell happened here?"

 

FWIW, to me, this kind of thing ties directly with our little schism/pow-wow a month or so ago.  If you really mean that you want to re-engage the community and make it grow, then you need to communicate with your users in a way that's more meaningful than simply "Hi, welcome, please stay."  Alerting them of a change that may impact their viewing/posting habits is a good place to start.  Keep them/us in the overall loop.  No surprises, unless they're obviously beneficial to all.

 

Finally, I don't think many of us would have a problem with sidebar ads, or ads below the header/above the footer (which there currently are).  The key is for them to not break the layout, or otherwise block users from viewing or creating posts.

[ManiacDan]

The key is for them to not break the layout, or otherwise block users from viewing or creating posts.

+1.  The first batch prevented me from copying and pasting, and obscured some of the content.  The second batch obscured ALL of the content.

[tomfmason]

 

takeover ads are now gone... What's getting depressing is that each time we try something new, nothing but complaints come about it.  At some point, we're all going to have to find a happy medium where #1 this site can make enough to sustain itself and help for future growth in development and #2 The complaining and bitching about Advertisements stops.  Either way, doesn't seem like we can find one, so what are we suppose to do?

 

 

I agree this is getting a bit old.

 

Listen guys, we are having a fairly serious issue here. This site, at the moment, barely covers it's hosting costs and sometimes it doesn't even do that. Eric has went out of pocket more times than I can count to cover these gaps. He has said to me several times: "It is a good thing I own the servers. Otherwise I don't think we could keep the site online" or something to that effect.

 

We all know that sites/applications that estimate a website's value are almost always off but most say that phpfreaks should be making several hundred US everyday. However, most of the time it barely makes 1/4 of that in a month. I bet Eric would be elated if he was able to bring in even a fraction of that every month.

 

After speaking with Eric about this last month I have been actively trying to find relevant businesses to purchase banners and or text links. The issue is that there just doesn't seem to be much interest and when someone does express interest they are wanting them for next to nothing. So, that is why he has been trying to find better alternatives to adsense. I personally feel like they don't report impressions correctly and I believe Eric could confirm this after setting up openx. On top of inaccurate reporting they also display irrelevant ads most of the time.

 

I have known Eric for a long time now and like to think I know him pretty well. He is not a money hungry person at all. He doesn't need the revenue from this site but he also doesn't want to continue covering the costs and getting nothing in return. 

 

I can understand how the dog food ads could be annoying but starting posts just bitching and not offering an alternative helps no one. So, in  a nut shell, either help come up with a solution or STFU as we try to keep this community online. Constructive criticism is welcome but hostility isn't. There is a big difference between reporting usability issues and just bitching about it.

[ManiacDan]

I was with you until the last paragraph. 

 

What are the alternatives?  What about projectWonderful?

[tomfmason]

I was with you until the last paragraph. 

 

What are the alternatives?  What about projectWonderful?

 

projectWonderful looks like it may be worth looking into. Thanks for the suggestion

[.josh]

Overall I  totally agree with Tom's last paragraph.  I see an awful lot of bitching and not a whole lot of "try this..." going on. 

 

TBH I don't even really care what the ads are for.  Maybe I happen to be a dog owner and I get a free coupon out of going to some site.  Who knows?  My main issue is just UX.  Gimme ads to mail order Russian brides for all I care, as long as I can still read the content.  But...when I am reading a post and see a link to the word "file" or something, I expect to see a manual entry about a php function, not something about filing my taxes... to get something like that IMO actually hurts people trying to help/get help. 

 

IMO you should experiment with the placement, try to find something that doesn't hurt UX, and give people the finger as far as what the ads actually are. 

 

[.josh]

p.s. - Reason I say to give the finger about what the ads are...I mean come on people, don't lie, how often do you actually click on "relevant" ads anyway?  If anything, "non-relevant" ads make it easier to distinguish ads from site content, translation, easier for you to auto-tune-out.