makeshift_theory Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Okay I'm going to try to do this without seeming like I'm ranting but it's going to be hard . So yesterday, my manager pulls me into the office to tell me that I am doing good work, and the last application I developed for them was great for the amount of time I had to do it blah blah blah. Then he proceeds to tell me he was giving me a .50 cent raise, I'm like wohoo (very dryly). So then he proceeds to ask me what my priorities are.....so I replied "well I've invested a lot of time and money into college and I want to pursue my degree so that is my top priority right now." What he replied next shocked me, he said "well I have issues with that," so I replied "Oh really?" and then he proceeds to explain that school is a waste of time and that the paper I will get from it is useless. Now I don't want to offend anyone, I know that you can get a good paying job without a degree but to me it's a sense of completition and accomplishment. So he basically asked me if I was planning on moving up in the company. Now moving up in my company means keeping your 14.00 an hour position and moving to a new department. So I basically told him that I don't know what the future holds and I cannot say one way or the other. What do you guys think, it's a tough predicament, I don't want to loose my job but I don't want to have to deal with idiots like these running the company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effigy Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Although I'm often alone in the view, I agree that paper is useless. I believe in experience. In my 6 years of being in the world of cubicles the degree holders haven't impressed me, and, to sound bold for a moment, I--the degreeless--could do just as much or more. It depends on how you apply yourself and what industry you're in. Yes, I would prefer to see a degree if I had to hire a Unix admin straight out of college, but I'd much rather have a seasoned admin, whether they have a degree or not. To me, the most important factor is an insatiable appetite for learning and application; this is what really escalates experience. Which degree are you working towards? Is it work related? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessica Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Uhm, you get paid hourly obviously, and you're offered a .50 cent raise? wtf? I hadn't graduated and I got a dev job paying $40k a year in texas, where we have some of the lowest payrates. Tell him to F off and find a decent job or finish school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effigy Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Never tell anyone to f--- off: be professional and don't burn your bridges. Do what you need to do. If you cannot find a better job, stay and continue to build up your resume and experience at this place. When (and if) you leave, you'll be able to prepare a nice portfolio and have the experience and degree to boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ober Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Finish school. No questions asked. Granted, they could probably hire you and treat you well for a while, but what are you going to do when you're done with that job or something happens? That's right. You're screwed. While I agree that in a perfect world, the paper would be useless, but the fact remains that most companies won't even look at you without a degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShogunWarrior Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Practically the paper is often worth nothing with the amount of experience you can gain in a company or even working on projects and on these boards. However: I would unreservedly choose the degree here, it is far more important than a 14/hour job. It is easy to say "the paper doesn't matter" but in the end if you go with this company and they decide to drop you then you are left with no degree, no job and you are a young person trying to get back into the industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcombs_31 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Like Ober said, I degree is usually a requirement for a higher paying job. In the real world, you get ahead by who you know. Unfortunately for some or most of us, there is nobody to help us out. So, with that said, I think a degree is worth more than just a possible job opportunity, it is a higher education that the average joe. I feel better about myself for having a Bachelor Degree. I haven't yet landed the ultimate career, but the degree has helped me with a higher pay rate at my current job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zq29 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 From an employers perspective, in my personal opinion, degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on. I'd much rather take on someone with a proven track record, be it in the form of a decent portfolio or whatever than someone with a degree that tells me what they might be capable of. I tend to notice that the degree holders know the theory behind everything, but when it comes to actually doing the job, it could be done better; generally by the experienced non-degree holders. Just my £0.0102554* [*based on todays rates] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessica Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Never tell anyone to f--- off: be professional and don't burn your bridges. Do what you need to do. If you cannot find a better job, stay and continue to build up your resume and experience at this place. When (and if) you leave, you'll be able to prepare a nice portfolio and have the experience and degree to boot. Well I didn't mean literally tell him to f off, I'm not that stupid When I left that job I gave them a month's notice that I was going back to school, and they toss me work all the time. But every single person there said they were proud of me for going back to school. If this guy's boss is saying he should put work before his degree, and they're not even paying him a decent salary, it's time for the figurative f-off. While I personally think work experience is more valuable than the degree, there's no value in working for too little pay for a boss with expectations you won't meet. So I say find a job that will pay better while you finish school, if you really want to finish. (I'm having trouble with it myself, but it's worth it to me because it's a personal goal - and statistically you can get higher pay with a degree. But a lot of employers really don't care - the smaller the company the less important the degrees are.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcombs_31 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 From an employers perspective, in my personal opinion, degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on. I'd much rather take on someone with a proven track record, be it in the form of a decent portfolio or whatever than someone with a degree that tells me what they might be capable of. I tend to notice that the degree holders know the theory behind everything, but when it comes to actually doing the job, it could be done better; generally by the experienced non-degree holders. Just my £0.0102554* [*based on todays rates] This is stupid, experience comes with time spent doing something. A person with a degree will likely have a chance to also earn experience. Even better, working in your field while attending college gives the best of both worlds. A person with a degree and with experience is certainly a better candidate for a position than the person with experience alone. While a degree is usually pretty overpriced, it is well worth it in the long run. Learning theory better helps you solve problems, experience is more else learning from repetition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effigy Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 jesirose: There's certainly truth to that, but there's a lot we don't know that must be considered. - Is a better job even available; has he looked? - Does this company normally do programming, or was he stepping out of the box? - Was the raise the typical yearly raise, or an off-the-cuff reward? - How long has he been there and what have his past raises been like? - What is he attending school for and how does it apply to his job? Maybe the boss is being rude, or maybe he's trying to offer some time-tested advice. Perhaps he's attending school for... philosophy, and his boss is trying to say "But you're good at this; if you stick to it you'll go places within the company." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbullmarky Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 i'd actually say that maybe the "necessity" varies from place to place, as I agree with my fellow Brit SemiApocalyptic on this one. Maybe your boss is telling you that a degree is a waste as it generally costs more for qualified people (some companies have grading/payment scales that dictate beforehand what a qualified/unqualified person gets). I dont wanna turn it into a salary showcase as I'm not one for discussing my finer details, but I got a job working for a recruitment company when I was 22. In all, I stayed there for 3 years, and I sailed out my last year there on £38,000 (about $75,000), yet I started off as a trainee and have no degree to my name. All it took was TONNES of hard work. So I'm not discrediting degrees and qualifications at all - they do help get the foot in the door, especially with regards to your Curriculum Vitae, but I personally believe that it's down to the individual and how hard they push. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makeshift_theory Posted February 16, 2007 Author Share Posted February 16, 2007 Never tell anyone to f--- off: be professional and don't burn your bridges. Do what you need to do. If you cannot find a better job, stay and continue to build up your resume and experience at this place. When (and if) you leave, you'll be able to prepare a nice portfolio and have the experience and degree to boot. Well I didn't mean literally tell him to f off, I'm not that stupid When I left that job I gave them a month's notice that I was going back to school, and they toss me work all the time. But every single person there said they were proud of me for going back to school. If this guy's boss is saying he should put work before his degree, and they're not even paying him a decent salary, it's time for the figurative f-off. While I personally think work experience is more valuable than the degree, there's no value in working for too little pay for a boss with expectations you won't meet. So I say find a job that will pay better while you finish school, if you really want to finish. (I'm having trouble with it myself, but it's worth it to me because it's a personal goal - and statistically you can get higher pay with a degree. But a lot of employers really don't care - the smaller the company the less important the degrees are.) Sorry for the delay in response but I'm at work haha. Too me it's not just about the paper, I love to learn new things about IT in general and I'm really interested in programming. I have an insensationable desire to learn and that's why I go to school. I would love to be able to just give my two weeks notice however I have a house I pay rent on as well as other things. Jacksonville, Florida is a really hard place to find programming work. IF anybody has any ideas I am more then willing to listen, as this is the real reason why I posted this thread.....I NEED HELP PS> Another thing is I have a pretty good track record...for me being 21 I've worked 3 tech jobs, programmed 5 applications, 1 in flash and managed at least 4 servers (unix and windows.) I just want the paper to be able to backup what I've already done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcombs_31 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 I think you are on the right track. I would have never learned on my own what I learned in college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makeshift_theory Posted February 16, 2007 Author Share Posted February 16, 2007 I know the hard part is going to be juggling the two. Work here is very stressful..I handle everything from sales, to scope and high-level document writing, to debugging, to writing brand new applications, to designing websites, managing sites, the list goes on....That's why I'm debating just working and paying off my unecessary bills and then put in my two weeks here and focus on school full time. If I need to later on I can get a small part time job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcombs_31 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 I went to school part time at night as I worked a full time IT job. You can manage two things, but not both full time. It took me 7 years to finish college going part time and durning summer. I prefered the night classes anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makeshift_theory Posted February 16, 2007 Author Share Posted February 16, 2007 They don't offer night classes here, plus I plan on going to a 4 year university after I get my 2 year degree so I don't want to be in school till i'm 35 haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcombs_31 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 That's what I did. I actually spent 4 years in community college mostly because of my schedule and because I changed my major twice. I ended up finishing CC with about 90 credit hours . Then I spent 3 years to finish up my BS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effigy Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 It sounds like you do quite a bit and deserve more, but, unfortunately, the job market will dictate. I'm not discouraging a degree if that's what you want, but I disagree with "I just want the paper to be able to backup what I've already done." If you're already done it, it's been tested, and you know it's good, say so. Spend the time crafting a nice resume and establishing references. Give details where needed: how long has the system been running, how many users, how many releases? What benefits did the application create? How did it affect internal and/or external processes? Out of curiosity, have you considered certifications? Are you willing to move for a job? (A big factor in my opinion.... I did.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ober Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Effigy, I hate to beat a dead horse, but I think I need to provide perspective from a hiring point of view, at least in the US: I'm in charge of hiring for a specific group within my company and we use Monster to try and find good applicants. One of the requirements we stick in there is that you must have a college degree. If you don't you won't even turn up in our search results. And all of our job descriptions specify that a 4-year degree is required. Certifications and tons of experience just don't get you in the door at most places anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makeshift_theory Posted February 16, 2007 Author Share Posted February 16, 2007 It sounds like you do quite a bit and deserve more, but, unfortunately, the job market will dictate. I'm not discouraging a degree if that's what you want, but I disagree with "I just want the paper to be able to backup what I've already done." If you're already done it, it's been tested, and you know it's good, say so. Spend the time crafting a nice resume and establishing references. Give details where needed: how long has the system been running, how many users, how many releases? What benefits did the application create? How did it affect internal and/or external processes? Out of curiosity, have you considered certifications? Are you willing to move for a job? (A big factor in my opinion.... I did.) I have considered certifications and with my 2 year A.S. degree I can take the test for 5 different certifications so I have thought of that. I am also willing to move but right now with my mother just going through a kidney transplant, I'm not apt to move away so quickly. The whole paper vs experience thing could go on forever but let me say this, many of times has someone else gotten the job over me due to the paper and the exp where I just have the exp. The paper shows drive, and diligence to pursue something and companies look at that as well. My step-dad was a programmer for IBM and lost him job after 30 years because the people taking his place had paper and he didn't so to me it's important in more then one way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 My 2 cents: As far as whether you should finish: I say do it. I wholeheartedly agree that getting the paper is pointless -- after you've gotten your foot in the door. Look at your own circumstance right now as an example. The problem is that, as ober already pointed out, most companies won't even give you the time of day unless you have it though. To me, the paper is like a key that unlocks the door. After you're inside, it no longer serves any purpose. But you still need it to get inside. I can tell you from my own experience of not having any formal education that the wisest thing for you to do is to get those papers. As far as companies expecting degrees/certs: the bottom line is that it gives the hiring managers more job security. If you walk in and say you can do something, and he hires you, and it turns out that you can't, not only will you get canned, but there's a good possibility that he'll get canned, too. But if you walk in and say you can do something, and you have a piece of paper from somewhere that says you went to school and passed a test on that something, so he hires you, and it turns out that you can't do the job, well, he can point the finger at your paper and your school. Also, your papers serve as proof that you committed to a goal and you completed it. So in that respect, getting an education does compare to experience. The boss can know to an extent that you will do something, because you have a piece of paper that shows you have done something. So unless you plan on staying with your current company for the rest of your life, finish your education and get the paper. That's your key to get in the door at other places. Also, I hate to point this out, but there is a very real possibility that your boss is trying to convince you to drop out of school in order to force you to stay, because even a boss with half a brain knows the whole paper==key concept. I think when your boss tells you that pursuing/finishing your schooling is pointless, what he really means, is that it's pointless as far as your future with his company. To him, you've already proven yourself, so to him, it's pointless for you to keep going. I don't know what your schedule demands are, but it may even be a thorn in his side for you to be going. If I were in your shoes, I'd be honest with him. Your company has just as much responsibility to you as you do to them, as far as your whole job arrangement is concerned. Work is a two way street. You perform a service and they compensate you for it. Since you aren't forced to work there, it is their responsibility to keep you interested in performing their required services. That includes offering competitive pay and benefits. So if I were you, when you get your papers, start job hunting. Go to an interview or 2, get some offers. Then go back to your boss and be honest and tell him that if he wants you to continue to be an employee at his company, that he's going to have to convince you to stay. That is, if you really like your company and would rather stay than go with one of those offers. Word of caution: judging by his "quit school" attitude, you should be prepared for the possibility that he's probably not going to make an effort to match those other offers, should you go that route. I'm just sayin'... if I were your boss, and I wasn't willing to pay you a ton of extra money, but I also didn't want to lose you, the best thing I could think of to do is try and convince you to quit school, so that I wouldn't have to give you more money, but still get to keep you. Also, as long as you don't have keys, you can't get into other places... Now I'm not saying that's what's going through his mind..but it's possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted_chou12 Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 If I dont like either, does that mean i am failing my life..??? and btw. your 2 cents was pretty long . Ted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbullmarky Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 **uh oh i'm feeling all philosphical** Your life is what you make of it. Whatever you put in, eventually you'll get out, regardless of the methods and tools you use along the way. Bill Gates does not have a degree. Richard Branson does not have a degree. Steve Jobs does not have a degree. All they did was do what most of the world just arent prepared to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Sorry redbull, but I don't really count those guys you listed. Time and time again I see people use those guys as examples of how "anybody" can be successful, regardless of education. But the reality of it is that those guys were rich to begin with. They grew up in rich homes. Pursuing your dreams without a degree is pretty easy when you have lots of money laying around at your disposal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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