silverglade Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 hi, i am learning web design right now, and eventually wanted to get into php. i was wondering if anyone knows what the future might be of php like 5 or 10 years down the road, like if you think it will still be popular, or if there will be jobs in it, compared to say java. thank you. any help greatly appreciated. derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premiso Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 PHP will only go down hill if something better comes out. It has been going strong and if you are good at it, there are some decent paying jobs for it. Java is a big industry due to it can be on multiple platforms etc. Your best bet is to learn both. Once you learned one language, learning another is not hard at all. Just learning the quirks. In my opinion java would be better to learn than PHP, since it "can" teach you better OOP habits. However, PHP will probably easier to learn. The future is hard to predict, but at least 60% (if not higher) of systems online right now run off of PHP, doubtful it will just "disappear". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 java is a standalone program, to be compared with c/c++/vb/delphi/etc... comparing php to java isn't exactly a fair comparison. Having said that, I personally do not foresee php going anywhere but up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverglade Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 great thank you both very much for that great feedback. i will try to learn both, but since php is easier and related to web design, i will learn php first. then learn java. thank you. derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennismonsewicz Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 just FYI and this is my opinion, the learning curve for PHP is not nearly as hard as java. Java, IMO, is a lot harder to learn that php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I don't think anybody would disagree that java has a much higher learning curve. I mean after all, it is a full blown programming language, built to make any application you want. If it was easier to learn than php, then IMO, someone didn't do something right... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maq Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 java is a standalone program, to be compared with c/c++/vb/delphi/etc... comparing php to java isn't exactly a fair comparison. Having said that, I personally do not foresee php going anywhere but up. I think when he said java he was referring to J2EE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premiso Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 just FYI and this is my opinion, the learning curve for PHP is not nearly as hard as java. Java, IMO, is a lot harder to learn that php Assuming you were replying to my post, I was just informing him, that I would learn java first, since it is a full language. In my opinion it is better to learn that first and it will hopefully help make them more efficient and a better programmer when they start learning PHP. I love Java, it is a blast to code in cause you can do a ton of stuff with it. PHP is a blast too cause it is not a "strict"/ full blown language, where most of what you need is done for you. But as CV said, you cannot really compare the two due to the fact that Java is a stand-alone and full blown language, where as php is more of a templating language. I am glad I started out coding in Java/C++ first before I started PHP, it made working in PHP a ton easier and helped with bad habits that most of the PHP books teach you. Such as defining variables before you use them, etc. That is just my 2cents though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.josh Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 There are plenty of people who learn how to code "properly," who started with php. coding properly is not a matter of what language you use, but of discipline. And we can argue all day long whether it's really bad practice to (not) do things like declare variables....but at the end of the day, the only thing I can conclusively say about not doing those things, is that you learn to program a certain way that is not the same way as those other languages, and so it may or may not be harder for you to learn those other languages. IMO I do not think it's fair to say this makes them a bad habit. That's like saying I shouldn't learn the grammar rules and spellings of english, because the grammar rules and spellings of spanish or french are different, and it will make it harder for me to learn them. It's simply a different language, made for a different environment. And I don't think it's necessarily fair to say start with one, then the other. A lot of programming concepts and practices are the same, but they are two different languages being used in two different environments. It really depends on what you want to be programming. If you are wanting to make the next awesome WoW game, then you really shouldn't start with languages meant for working on servers and web pages, like php. If you are wanting to design websites and work with databases and flatfiles and stuff, then it's really not necessary to take on the extra baggage of a full blown language like java or c/c++. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premiso Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Yea, I have a habit of saying stuff in the wrong way. I guess it all depends on the person, I started out that way, and I feel that it made me a better coder because of it. When I started coding PHP, I never had the "register_global" security issues, cause I already had a habit of defining my variables before I used them. Etc and so on. It is not the language that promotes bad coding practices, it is the learning material/lack of knowledge. I do have to say, since I only worked with Oracle as a standalone before I coded PHP/MySQL that I had no clue about the mysql_real_escape_string issues, and thus I left it off most of my first PHP programs, until I learned about it. Well yea, that is just my opinion on the subject, it did help me thwart certain bad habits, which I see every day, with people trying to write PHP code, but since it was a completely different language it did not help with everything other than the basic logic and concepts. So really it depends on their needs and where they want to go Sorry, I do that all the time, my wife hates that about how I talk with her lol. It all makes sense in my head! As far as personal experiences go, I was glad I started out with C++ and Java as appose to just jumping into PHP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel0 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 And we can argue all day long whether it's really bad practice to (not) do things like declare variables.... You'll get an E_NOTICE if you use an undefined variable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maq Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 And we can argue all day long whether it's really bad practice to (not) do things like declare variables....but at the end of the day, the only thing I can conclusively say about not doing those things, is that you learn to program a certain way that is not the same way as those other languages, and so it may or may not be harder for you to learn those other languages. It's not about coding style or preference. The way the language is built forces you to use a certain style/standard. It's good to be consistent anyway. PHP is a web language, and with many web languages they are very loosely typed and aren't very strict about, well almost everything. This is one of the reasons PHP is so easy to learn, and the reason that you can code any way you want. The reason for Java and C++ being so strict is because it eliminates mistakes, run-time errors, etc... Once PHP turns into a primarily OOP language, it will be stronger typed, coding standards and practices you should follow, and just overall consistent. Issues like, whether or not to declare variables, I guess are relative to the situation. For example, building a simple website, they don't matter at all. But when developing medical software for hospitals, it's very important to declare and instantiate variables, there are plenty of examples (not just in Java) where people have died or have been injured due to improper programming practices. But then again, these are two different horses. It's hard to compare languages, especially something like Java vs PHP. All I can say is learn multiple languages, they will all teach you something new and helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian W Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Not sure what board this goes on. Doesn't seem like it should go in the misc section because it isn't random, its about PHP. I read an article last night that made claim that PHP was a dying language for serious developers because every one is learning it (such as myself). By making it so easy to get into, having excellent forums like this one, and very good tutorials out there, I became proficient in PHP in under 3 months without have any experience in programming. I suppose many others out their can/have picked up on it as fast if not faster. Supply and demand will kick us in the arse when their is 20 developers out bidding each other on the freelance board. Anyways, that is what the article implied. It also, possibly jokingly, said PERL was the way to go for Linux buffs... I know three ASP.Net developers and I can build anything they can build in about the same amount of time with just as much functionality. So whats up with the ragging on PHP developers from the .Net crowd? BTW, if you don't mind, how much do you get paid an hour or salary? I'm hired on as kinda a paid intern, so I expect to get paid low numbers, but just want to know where this could go. Thanks and sorry if totally in the wrong section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSuperHero Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I agree that it will def be a very competative market in the job market for PHP although I would also suggest that you really to have to be proficient in other things to, afterall PHP was intended to be a Web Dev Language, and although there are things like PHP-GTK, wich greatly expand the functionality into other realms, I think PHP still has alot of ground to gain, and many more changes will come, I think It will transform in the next few Major point releases....but I dont know to be honest....im making a move to Actionscript as we speak, so I can pair it up with PHP serverside capabilities... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premiso Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Already being discussed, it was asked earlier: question about the future of php As far as my take, yes, unless something better comes along. EDIT: The rage from the .NET is that .NET is closed source, Microsoft owned, so you have to pay for the OS to run it, and the .NET software to code it. Also, as far as XP is concerned, Home cannot run IIS as it does not come installed, so you would have to pay more for "Pro" to run IIS. PHP is open sourced, can run on multiple environments, Linux, Mac and Windows. It is free, with Apache to run it. This is ideal for small businesses, and even corporations who do not want to have to pay extra for a CD-KEY or even just the .NET studio to have a developer code their site. That is the major difference between the two. .NET studio can be nice, and it can be helpful with the debugging engine etc it has, but it is Microsoft, and you do have to pay to use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trq Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I think the article may have actually been referring to the fact that php is so easy to learn it attracts a whole lot of people who know very little about programming. Its one thing to know a languages syntax, being able to design applications is an entirely different ball game. Supply and demand will kick us in the arse when their is 20 developers out bidding each other on the freelance board. While it is true that there are many people programming in php, it is also true that only a minimal percentage of these people are any good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian W Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Thanks for merging this. Can't believe I stepped on toes the same freaking day someone else asked the question... just my luck. Any ways, what about PERL? Also, my question about pay/salary still stands if any one is willing to give me an idea as to what the pay grade is. I found on http://www.salary.com/ some information, but nothing that applied directly to web developers using PHP. It suggests that the average is about 60k a year for "Web Software Developer ", but that sounds high (or are my standards of living that low?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premiso Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Thanks for merging this. Can't believe I stepped on toes the same freaking day someone else asked the question... just my luck. Any ways, what about PERL? Also, my question about pay/salary still stands if any one is willing to give me an idea as to what the pay grade is. I found on http://www.salary.com/ some information, but nothing that applied directly to web developers using PHP. It suggests that the average is about 60k a year for "Web Software Developer ", but that sounds high (or are my standards of living that low?). PERL will always be there. It is an awesome and powerful language. It is worth while to learn PERL, at least in my opinion. It depends on how you are trying to get a job/what state you live in. When I started out as a junior developer I was making $15/hour, but that was in Wyoming, which $15/hour is quite a bit of money for there. Right now my DB services I charge $50/hour to design a DB. $40/hour to code PHP/HTML/JS but I also do this as a "side" job. If I was doing this full time I would try and get in with a company on a salary basis. Starting salary I would say is probably an average around $50k per year for coding. If you up to a project manager/dba you get quite a bit more than that. But you have to have the proper degrees and or have worked with the company long enough for them to promote you. But it all depends on the developer. Most of my clients know I am worth that money for extensive tasks cause I will deliver and I have a great reputation with them. But I started out charging them a bit less than that just to get my foot in the door. Once I was in, they want to keep me happy when I code for them to keep on staff as a contractor. They pay their code monkeys the lower wages to code the easy stuff That is my take anyhow from my own experiences. It all depends on the company, if they make enough money to fund you and how you have represented yourself to that company in the past. EDIT: I should note, I do code for smaller business websites that do not make much money and only have 1 part time coder on staff. For them I generally go down to $20-30 cause I know they cannot afford it and I am thankful for their business, so yea. If I did not need a "guaranteed" job and medical benefits I would so go private and make a ton more money. But a last I need the security and benefits, so IT Tech Help is the job for me. I am just glad I am allowed to do side work, really helps out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian W Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 The rage from the .NET is that .NET is closed source, Microsoft owned, so you have to pay for the OS to run it, and the .NET software to code it. Also, as far as XP is concerned, Home cannot run IIS as it does not come installed, so you would have to pay more for "Pro" to run IIS. PHP is open sourced, can run on multiple environments, Linux, Mac and Windows. It is free, with Apache to run it. This is ideal for small businesses, and even corporations who do not want to have to pay extra for a CD-KEY or even just the .NET studio to have a developer code their site. That is the major difference between the two. .NET studio can be nice, and it can be helpful with the debugging engine etc it has, but it is Microsoft, and you do have to pay to use it. Yes, I've noted the cost differences between them which further promotes what thorpe siad: While it is true that there are many people programming in php, it is also true that only a minimal percentage of these people are any good. Less serious developers/random folks are more likely to pick up PHP and mess with it than and .NET out there, but if they aren't serious, they aren't competition. Thanks premiso for the monetary info... its helps me on perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trq Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Any ways, what about PERL? Perl is indeed still the cornerstone of any Linux sys admin's kit but I think its days of usefullness in web dev work may have already passed. Of course some will argue both these points but we don't won't to get a php vs flame war going here. It suggests that the average is about 60k a year for "Web Software Developer ", but that sounds high (or are my standards of living that low?). $60k sounds pretty average to me. I guess it all depends on where your from though and what you think your worth. If you search the board you'll find threads on this subject too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian W Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I only make about $20k/$10 an hour right now in Arizona at the age of 19. Like I said in my first post, I didn't start till about 6 months ago. The guy hired me knowing that I was dedicated but didn't know anything yet, I really appreciate that. I'll be asking for a raise soon (like we had discussed when I was hired) up to about $12 an hour and see what happens. I guess I don't mind making the little I do because everyone I know can't find work and are scrapping for minimum wage gigs (which is like $7.25 right now). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premiso Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I only make about $20k/$10 an hour right now in Arizona at the age of 19. Like I said in my first post, I didn't start till about 6 months ago. The guy hired me knowing that I was dedicated but didn't know anything yet, I really appreciate that. I'll be asking for a raise soon (like we had discussed when I was hired) up to about $12 an hour and see what happens. I guess I don't mind making the little I do because everyone I know can't find work and are scrapping for minimum wage gigs (which is like $7.25 right now). Yep in this economy in the states, be grateful for what you have right now! It could always be worse. As far as the $10, thats about what I started out at (actually $15) but the owner really liked that I could keep up with him when he was doing stuff and decided after 1 month to go from $10 to $15, plus unlimited overtime. I was working about 70hours/week which was good money at 19 (which was when I got my first programming job full-time). Since then he taught me a ton about coding and efficiency, I actually would be a bum coder today without that job. When I left him he offered to make me a partner, but I needed the security that he could not provide me, unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian W Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I am grateful for the gig I have, but the cost of living is going up and in order to do what I need, I need a little more money. How long ago was this that you were 19 (if you don't mind) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premiso Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I am grateful for the gig I have, but the cost of living is going up and in order to do what I need, I need a little more money. How long ago was this that you were 19 (if you don't mind) 24 now, so 5 years ago. As for COL, I did not have that issue. I lived with my parents until I was 20, so COL did not matter (free rent), at which I got a job that paid $40k/year and moved on with my life. But I was wise with money and saved it up, so when I moved out I had first and last months rent paid, plus $4g in savings, which helped for when I bought my house a couple years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian W Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I had to move out of parents in order to get this job, so COL makes a big difference to me. Do you think programming is a stable job even with the economy inevitably popping? I mean, are people going to be still having things programmed even when their are bread lines? Well, I guess really that is something to worry about if that happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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