Facebook is watching you

[joe92]

An article explaining how facebook logs what you do online even after you sign out:

http://nikcub-cache.appspot.com/logging-out-of-facebook-is-not-enough

 

A write up article on the above article aimed to simpify it:

http://venturebeat.com/2011/09/25/facebook-tracking-logged-out/?utm_source=pulsenews&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Venturebeat+%28VentureBeat%29

 

Surely a breach of privacy laws? I added the ad blocker that the second article suggested. It prevents facebook chat (as well as many other functions like viewing a photo) from working after you add the new rules to it. But since I'm quite fond of my privacy I think I'm going to start blocking facebook through this ad blocker every time I sign out and only unblock them (which you can do quite easily, just press Ctrl+Shift+O to get the options up) when I want to sign back in again. I think there is already a group of 'hackers' called anonymous who are trying to take down facebook saying that it sells information to corrupt dictatorship countries like Syria? (That might be a bit too farfetched, who knows, but that is there incentive I think) Hopefully they will succeed, but then we will all be forced to use google+ which it wouldn't suprise me if they were doing something similar. Are large corporations are a greater threat to mankind than religion? I think so.

 

Joe

[freelance84]

WOW!

 

Or just use one browser for facebook and another for everything else.

[Adam]

Do you often browse Facebook without being logged in? I don't, I generally click logout and close the tab. I'm not exactly sure why this is so terrifying, you're tracked everywhere you go. Facebook tracking you on their own site certainly isn't the worst of it.

 

P.S. if you really can't trust Facebook, perhaps you shouldn't upload virtually every bit of information about your life into it?

[SparK_BR]

chrome's anonymus window

firefox's private navigation

and similars may help you with that

(cookies get eaten after you close the browser)

[joe92]

Facebook tracking you on their own site certainly isn't the worst of it.

 

That isn't the point of the article. The article is pointing out that after you log out of facebook and close the tab, they are still monitoring what you are doing. So after you exit their site and completely cut off all ties to it (virtually) they are still there watching you when you don't want them too. Any site with a facebook widget (which is a lot) relays your information back to the server. It should be completely up to the user to say whether information about what they are doing on different websites when they aren't even logged into facebook can or cannot be relayed back.

[.josh]

Hate to break it to you, but facebook is by far not the first site to continue to track your activities on their site, even after you "log off". 

 

The only thing really "concerning" about this is people who use public computers..but then, even that is nothing new.  You should never use a public computer to login to really private stuff to begin with (like your bank).  But if you do use it for logging into things like facebook (or something else "private" but not as private as logging into your bank website), you should always make sure to delete all cookies and history before you leave the computer. This is not new..

 

Here's the thing.  Companies spend lots of money investing in their website.  They pay people like us to design and build their website.  It is an investment to get people to buy their product or get people to engage in xyz or give a shit about ads or whatever their goal is, depending on what the product/service is.  Then they pay other people to track what visitors are doing on the website.  And why do you suppose you are being tracked?  It is so they can try and figure out what parts of their site people like and what parts people don't like, and improve their site.  Additionally, they want to be able to show you ads or other content relevant to you so that you will be more inclined to engage with them.  And usually the deal with targeted ads is because you aren't paying for their service to begin with. Notice how most sites make them go away when you give them money some other way?

 

Is trying to improve your experience and indirectly offset their cost to bring you said experience on their site really such a bad thing?  I swear, people make out like there is some evil plot afoot when it comes to being tracked online, just waiting for guys in suits to come knocking on your door after they find out you like blue socks or some shit.  Really??  The worst thing that happens is that FaceBook sees you like a particular product and they go out and tell the advertisers that you like productX so the advertisers start offering you stuff about productX.  Is that really a bad thing? "Oh nohs, someone offered me a deal on something I might actually be interested in! IT'S THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD I TELL YOU!!!!"  Are people really that into having people try to sell random shit to them they will never want?

 

Is this how we act in the real world?  Do we walk into Walmart and start bitching because they have security cameras up?  Because I'll let you in on a little secret: physical stores do the same thing.  You don't really think those security cameras are there just to track potential thieves do you?  Companies look at them to evaluate the paths people take through their store, what products people actually spend time browsing, etc..  and reorganize their store accordingly.  But do we complain about this?

 

We are fucking ourselves because we refuse to look past ourselves and why we are being tracked in the first place.  We seem to have this idea that the internet should be a place where we can completely and anonymously act however we want to act and do whatever we want to do without being identified in any way whatsoever and not have to account for said actions.  Oh and we also seem to think that it should all be free.  Why is this? The only people I can see who stand to actually benefit from this scenario are people who want to exploit, troll, cheat, steal, etc.. the system or other people. 

 

But as for people who aren't trying to cheat the system or others... why do you think the cost of things like getting online to begin with are going up?  Running servers and websites and all the technology used to even get people online is not free and therefore it will never be free to us.  Whether we pay a million different people in order to have an online experience, or reduce it to a handful of people or even one person (and then everybody else get their piece of the pie through them) ... which sounds more convenient to you?  But all those people can't offer you this "free" experience and get their piece of the pie from someone without your "paper trail".  We have to realize that the more we bitch about things like "privacy" and shit, the more we are going to just have to pay for things more directly.  Our ISP costs will go up.  Sites will either stop having an online presence or they will make you pay to access them.  Is this really what we really want? We seriously need to stop bitching when someone takes note of which page we are viewing on their site, and look at the bigger picture.

 

And I really hate having to defend companies like this.  Lord knows, they certainly are ripping us off on lots of things as it is.  But once again I'm being forced to play devil's advocate because people are being frakking stupid about shit, not realizing they are just fucking themselves over in the long run by bitching about the wrong things.  Pick your battles people!

[Adam]

Well said!

[joe92]

Is this how we act in the real world?  Do we walk into Walmart and start bitching because they have security cameras up?  Because I'll let you in on a little secret: physical stores do the same thing.  You don't really think those security cameras are there just to track potential thieves do you?  Companies look at them to evaluate the paths people take through their store, what products people actually spend time browsing, etc..  and reorganize their store accordingly.  But do we complain about this?

 

But the security camera stays in Walmart. It doesn't then follow you out of the shop and into the pharmaceutical store next door to determine which drugs you are prescribed too. And then on into the furniture shop to determine whether you like lazy chairs over sofa's. And then on into JD sports to determine which sports you play. And then on into... you get my picture. All so it can display a poster dedicated to you in its window. No, it stays in Walmart and gathers as much information about you as it can from it's position in Walmart.

 

I'm not some deluded or ignorant to companies profiling their customers. It's common business sense to know what your customer wants so you stock the right goods. The same applies to internet businesses. However, it doesn't give them the right to then continue profiling me after I have left the store or website.

 

And I am very aware of server costs, what with having to pay them. But they don't need to profile every website I visit to determine what I like. There are already hundred's of 'pages' that a user on facebook can 'like', there are many many fields of information a user can fill in about themselves. Facebook has the right to look at that information and use it. And it can use it to advertise crap to me that I don't want but it thinks I wants. Not by following my browsing history.

[Philip]

joe, you must absolutely hate malls then.

[joe92]

joe, you must absolutely hate malls then.

 

Haha. You all seem to think that I hate companies profiling its customers. No. I just don't like them profiling me after I have left the premises. I'd love to see any one of you accepting having someone walk along behind you with a clipboard making notes about what you do and where you go after you have left a shop. I think after about 5 minutes you would turn around and confront the person.

[Philip]

I personally don't mind as much as most. If it's about eventually getting me a better user experience, then fine. Are the practices the best? No, not really... but in the end if you don't like it, block their cookies.

 

BTW most ad blockers don't actually refuse the connection to the ad - the just add a "display:none" to the div so it hides it from your view. They are technically still there on the page (tracking your every move )

[Pikachu2000]

joe, you must absolutely hate malls then.

 

Haha. You all seem to think that I hate companies profiling its customers. No. I just don't like them profiling me after I have left the premises. I'd love to see any one of you accepting having someone walk along behind you with a clipboard making notes about what you do and where you go after you have left a shop. I think after about 5 minutes you would turn around and confront the person.

 

Maybe, but the reality of the situation is that in a public place, there wouldn't be a damn thing I could do about it. The internet is a public place.

[premiso]

You could always install a deal on Chromium (if you use chrome) called  "Disconnect"  I use it all the time, it monitors Twitter / FB / Google cookies and allows you to disable them for certain sites etc.

[.josh]

But the security camera stays in Walmart. It doesn't then follow you out of the shop and into the pharmaceutical store next door to determine which drugs you are prescribed too. And then on into the furniture shop to determine whether you like lazy chairs over sofa's. And then on into JD sports to determine which sports you play. And then on into... you get my picture. All so it can display a poster dedicated to you in its window. No, it stays in Walmart and gathers as much information about you as it can from it's position in Walmart.

joe, you must absolutely hate malls then.

 

Haha. You all seem to think that I hate companies profiling its customers. No. I just don't like them profiling me after I have left the premises. I'd love to see any one of you accepting having someone walk along behind you with a clipboard making notes about what you do and where you go after you have left a shop. I think after about 5 minutes you would turn around and confront the person.

 

"Someone" does follow you around from store to store.  It's call "Mr. Credit Card." Every time you swipe that card, your cc company records that, and they send that shit to all of its partners and affiliates.  Even when you walk out of walmart and go somewhere to eat, Walmart will know.  And not just credit cards. Even your bank's checkcard or any other "card".  It's all really more or less the same thing. 

 

"AAh but I pay with cash only!" you say.  So that affords you a little bit of anonymity, good job.  But how long do you think that will last? Already many places do not accept cash at all.  And even still, most people use a card of some kind already, even if cash is accepted. 

 

I'm not some deluded or ignorant to companies profiling their customers. It's common business sense to know what your customer wants so you stock the right goods. The same applies to internet businesses. However, it doesn't give them the right to then continue profiling me after I have left the store or website.

 

Facebook (or any other site) can't track all of your browsing history.  They can only track pages on other sites that have some actual code on it, like facebook api for liking/sharing an article or posting comment, etc...  That is the magic code that makes it possible.  Without it, facebook cookies are just that - cookies.  Cookies can't do anything in and of themselves.

 

And why shouldn't FB be allowed to track this? At this point in time, you should really be bitching at the website you are on, not FB, but even then, it is your choice to go there and that website has a vested interest in trying to track you just the same. 

 

And I am very aware of server costs, what with having to pay them. But they don't need to profile every website I visit to determine what I like. There are already hundred's of 'pages' that a user on facebook can 'like', there are many many fields of information a user can fill in about themselves. Facebook has the right to look at that information and use it. And it can use it to advertise crap to me that I don't want but it thinks I wants. Not by following my browsing history.

 

All those form fields with "personal information" they have to fill out mean jack shit to them if nobody is filling them out or when they do, they purposefully misinformation them.  And yes, lots of companies have a FaceBook page...but do you really go surfing around FB looking for them?  How many people do you know do that? Since when did FB replace Google?  Nobody does that.  And people bitch about those things too!  You point at things you know are useless and claim that is enough for them.  More trying to have your cake and eat it too.

 

And even still, who are you to say that you should be able to walk into someone else's house and not be tracked or identified?  Again I say, the only people with that mindset are thieves, trolls, cheats, scammers, people trying to cheat the system or other people. 

 

I'm not trying to bitch at you or single you out personally.  My rants are in general.  But as for you specifically, responding to your post specifically, I can see that you do acknowledge some costs involved, and acknowledge on some level why you are being tracked, but there are literally a million moving parts here.... it's not just what you are paying your hosting service to keep your website online. 

 

Bottom line is that all day long people try to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to being online.  People bitch about having to pay a bill to a dozen different companies just to get online in the first place.  They bitch about having to give their payment info to any site out there instead of a single trusted location.  They bitch about getting bombarded with ads for things they don't want.  People bitch when it's hard to fill out a form or read some article because fonts are fucked or some other UX flaw.  People bitch when they have to jump through a bunch of hoops to make a post somewhere.  People bitch and bitch and bitch and bitchbitchbitch about all this shit, and then bitch some more when companies try to do something about it.

 

Like I said... people want to have their cake and eat it too.  We somehow think the internet should be this super awesome experience where everything is magically exactly how we want it to be, no guesswork or baddie anythings, and most importantly, no having to pay for anything. In short, people seem to expect the internet to be heaven.  Well it's not.  The truth is that nobody is psychic, and nothing is free.  People need to be able to identify you in order to do anything.  That's how the system works, both in the real world and online.  They are going to identify you one way or the other. 

 

We need to look at the bigger picture, start realizing that it's a lot of moving parts.  No, companies like FaceBook do not directly need to know our activities or interests etc.. .  but other companies do, and this is about connecting different investors and stakeholders together so that they can keep from making us have to jump through all those hoops that we bitch about.

 

 

[freelance84]

I'm being forced to play devil's advocate because people are being frakking stupid about shit, not realizing they are just fucking themselves over in the long run by bitching about the wrong things.  Pick your battles people!

Is tracking people in a secretive way a correct/moral thing to do? (I don't think so)

 

Is the system set up for advertising the best? (I don't think so)

 

Is it shocking to find that people go 'WTF, i'm being tracked where ever i go on the internet! I didn't know that! That's not right!'? (I don't think so)

 

 

Sites will either stop having an online presence or they will make you pay to access them.

Before the age of the internet business's forked out 1000's on advertising in the yellow pages... etc. Having an internet presence as a business is essentially advertising period, so I doubt they would ask for money to access your site.

 

 

 

Facebook was on the news a while ago for storing phone numbers from your contacts with out actually asking. That doesn't seem right, and quite frankly a little worrying that they did it. It seems that the mentality is 'do what you can get away with'.

 

Granted without advertising a lot of sites would probably disappear as they wouldn't be able to afford server costs (that would then open up an entirely new debate as to whether or not that is actually a bad thing), but you could not say that for sure either.

 

How can anyone truly say if the information all this tracking is gathering is solely for legit simple advertising means?

Quite often i read somewhere or hear from someone "there are no morals in business" or "no millionaire has got to where they are without screwing someone over". Still doesn't make it right. And that still doesn't mean there is a better way.

 

 

And why shouldn't FB be allowed to track this? At this point in time, you should really be bitching at the website you are on, not FB, but even then, it is your choice to go there and that website has a vested interest in trying to track you just the same. 

True

[KevinM1]

How hard is it to, you know, simply delete the offending cookie(s)?

[.josh]

I'm being forced to play devil's advocate because people are being frakking stupid about shit, not realizing they are just fucking themselves over in the long run by bitching about the wrong things.  Pick your battles people!

Is tracking people in a secretive way a correct/moral thing to do? (I don't think so)

 

There is no secret about it.  We're plainly talking about it, aren't we? 

 

Is it shocking to find that people go 'WTF, i'm being tracked where ever i go on the internet! I didn't know that! That's not right!'? (I don't think so)

 

Well I am "shocked".  Again, why would anybody other than a retard think the internet should be this magical experience where everything is easy to do according to their individual ways of going about things, and get it all for free etc... and not pay a price somewhere along the line?  Yes, I am shocked at how many people out there really do expect others to simultaneously be psychic and ignorant about them.

 

Sites will either stop having an online presence or they will make you pay to access them.

Before the age of the internet business's forked out 1000's on advertising in the yellow pages... etc. Having an internet presence as a business is essentially advertising period, so I doubt they would ask for money to access your site.

 

If you really think you were getting your yellow pages for free then you are being ignorant.  You paid for it indirectly, I promise you.  Companies pay to have their business listed in the yellow pages.  They pass that cost on to you by what they charge you for their products/services.  Back then, you simply paid for this stuff more directly (or more accurately, you paid for it less indirectly than now).  These says with technology being more complex, there's a lot more moving parts, a lot more people involved between you and the business when it comes to things like websites or being online, so there are more opportunities to lower the price of products and services - providing we stop being whiny bitches about being tracked.

 

Also, having an an internet presence as a presence is not just advertising.  And btw, there are plenty of sites who ask for money to access their site.  Hello, Netflix and the like?  favoritpronsite.com?  Music/radio sites? "Help" Services?  Sure, they have a "free" area where you can browse services offered but they are not 100% free!  Oh I get it, you meant random joe local business.  You really don't think they aren't somehow paying for that site by passing that cost on to you? 

 

There is nothing free about the internet and we, the consumer, ultimately pay for it, whether directly or indirectly.  That is how it has always been and always will be, regardless of whether it is the yellow pages or telemarketing calls we hate or websites or tv ads or anything else.  Anything that cannot be paid for somewhere indirectly along the lines, will be paid for by the cost of the product itself. 

 

Facebook was on the news a while ago for storing phone numbers from your contacts with out actually asking. That doesn't seem right, and quite frankly a little worrying that they did it. It seems that the mentality is 'do what you can get away with'.

 

I think maybe you misread whatever article you read or left something important out, because at face value this statement is retarded.  How else would FB be able to let you enter in contact info in your profile and have you able to edit it later or share with your friends, except for to store it? 

 

And anyways, I'm sorry to be the informer of bad news for you, but the "do what you can get away with" mentality is nothing new and nothing specific to FB.  That is how the world works.  I'm not saying that is right, but that's how it is.  Morality is decided by law, which is written by corporations. 

 

Granted without advertising a lot of sites would probably disappear as they wouldn't be able to afford server costs (that would then open up an entirely new debate as to whether or not that is actually a bad thing), but you could not say that for sure either.

 

But we can say that, by looking at history and how sites came to grow and be more accessible in the first place, and by looking at the money made from companies directly trying to sell you something, whether they got the money directly from you or indirectly.  And by looking at the companies who have thrived from tracking you.  We get to look at their paper trails and see that this does work, and people are happy with the results they get out of it...the problem is that people tend to get all hypocritical and stupid about it when they sit down and think about it. 

 

People want this stuff. They want to be able to go to a site and it be designed to easily do xyz.  They don't want to have to pay a million different people a fee to even get online etc... and no, nobody should have to give you something for free!  Why don't you try running your own business for a while and see how that goes! 

 

 

How can anyone truly say if the information all this tracking is gathering is solely for legit simple advertising means?

Quite often i read somewhere or hear from someone "there are no morals in business" or "no millionaire has got to where they are without screwing someone over". Still doesn't make it right. And that still doesn't mean there is a better way.

 

That's right.  We never know do we.  If you somehow think you'll sleep better at night knowing that places like FB can't share info with others for some nefarious purpose... if you're going to be all conspiracy theorist about it, I assure you, "the man" doesn't need to ask FaceBook where you live or what your phone number is. 

 

Again, people make out like this "privacy" thing is a way bigger deal than it is.  They hear that sites are tracking them and for some unknown stupid reason they imagine their cc, ss, id, phone #'s being shared with lots of people everywhere.  Or that some shadow agency is getting ready to totally take over your identity and fuck you over.  Are there baddies out there trying to do that sort of thing? Sure.  But that's why you avoid shady sites to begin with.  If you walk down a dark alley, chances of you getting mugged go up.

 

But what's worse is how some people even bitch about random non-personal shit like how many times "a" page was viewed by "people". 

 

I mean come on man, sit down and have a serious thought exercise about what exactly is your problem with all this.  If you know that people use this stuff to make things more convenient for you, make things more relevant for you... what exactly is the problem?  It "feels" wrong.  It "seems" wrong.  You need to do better than that.  Especially when you're playing the "lack of morals in general" card, because as mentioned, those sorts of people...while they may or may not be legit concerns...do not need people like facebook or tracking cookies to fuck you over. 

 

 

[KevinM1]

Pop quiz: did Facebook invent the tracking cookie?

[Philip]

Pop quiz: did Facebook invent the tracking cookie?

 

Nope, not by any means. However, they were one of the first bigger sites to get in trouble because of things like beacon

[KevinM1]

Pop quiz: did Facebook invent the tracking cookie?

 

Nope, not by any means. However, they were one of the first bigger sites to get in trouble because of things like beacon

 

Which is far more nefarious than what this thread is about.

 

Facebook is not a 'good' company.  I dislike many of their decisions about what information they claim to require, and how they handle it.  Their privacy settings page is about as opaque as it could possibly get.  But two pages of discussion over a cookie?

[Philip]

Yes, because cookies are delicious

[freelance84]

.josh, I appreciate and respect the fact that you are very knowledgeable in this area far more than I, and I know that the system set up is working.

 

I am not naive enough to believe that anything in this world is for free, especially when talking about something created by another human. Everything I look at is a result or been affected by business at some level.

 

There is no secret about it.  We're plainly talking about it, aren't we?

Well, yes there is truth in this, however it's not like you go onto a site and they say 'Hey we're tracking what you do'. If you want to find out you have to do a bit of digging. I think that it is when people do this bit of digging (because they heard down the pub a rumour about this, or actually took the time to read all the small prints [this then becomes another debate, what should be included in small print and what should not, especially as not many people have the time to read them all, the idea that some business can do anything just because they said they were going to in small print buried in some sub sub section is not right either]) and discover the "camera" watching them they feel alarmed. In the exact same way I can imagine if you found a camera in your house watching you, or a camera in the changing rooms trying to figure out what underwear you liked.

I don't really recall any little message at the bottom of ads saying 'we placed this ad here based on your google search history and numerous other means of tracking, to find out more please click here'

 

 

why would anybody other than a retard think the internet should be this magical experience where everything is easy to do according to their individual ways of going about things, and get it all for free etc... and not pay a price somewhere along the line?

I couldn't agree more. The internet can not be a free place, this would require a communist state of some kind, as who on earth would make all the pages, and host the damn thing...etc

However this again doesn't mean that it is right to track peoples moves without telling them in a very obvious way (if you feel like saying 'but it is all in a very obvious way!'  please tell me you have plenty of friends not in the web design/ developing business and you have asked them, i know when i started to learn about all of this i was asking friends and they really had no idea).

 

 

If you really think you were getting your yellow pages for free then you are being ignorant.

I think my dads business in the 80'2 & 90's was paying 12-20k+ on advertising over 4 main areas. Competition in his business was strong and thus those overheads were essential, I think the costs in the yellow pages were somewhere in the region of 7-11k the amount of which fluctuated year on year. And yes, at some level the prices may have gone up slightly with the costs of the advertising but only marginally, but costs must stay inline with competition so cannot go too high.

 

 

And btw, there are plenty of sites who ask for money to access their site.

Talking about different things here i think. I was meaning about sites which advertise there business, anything from Top-man to my local Green Grocers. Not functional sites like this or others. However the site www.magicseaweed.com, started out as just a surf forecast site, then started displaying ads, then started selling goods through the website. I think they probably make the bulk of their cash through their shop now, either way, usefull and functional sites I would be happy to pay for. Before magicseaweed.com, there was a local surf shop with a hotline you could call, 50p per minute, but it rang off the hook. I think i'm wandering a bit off topic here.

 

 

Facebook was on the news a while ago for storing phone numbers from your contacts with out actually asking. That doesn't seem right, and quite frankly a little worrying that they did it. It seems that the mentality is 'do what you can get away with'.

 

I think maybe you misread whatever article you read

 

"the man" doesn't need to ask FaceBook where you live or what your phone number is.

It was a few months ago. This is summary

 

 

 

Anyway, i am in no way trying to argue the internet should be free, but then that was never the point of the OP.

 

PS

The day we ALL lay down and say 'thats not right but i can't be arsed to say anything about it' is a grave day indeed. Just because someone discovers something today created yesterday doesn't mean they are not allowed to say, hang on that doesn't feel right.

Also the argument of what and what is not right or morally correct will ALWAYS be a valid argument (there is of course a difference between discussing your views and being a down right nuisance with them via stupid protests and the like)

 

[coincidentally did anyone see the activists with their hands cemented into a steel barrel at Dale Farm about 5days ago? I wonder if they're still there!]