Making a proposal

[KevinM1]

One of the things that I find most difficult about the web development field is trying to predict how long a project will take.  I can just never tell how long something will take to be completed.  Case in point, I'm attempting to write a proposal for a client that wants the following services:

 

A login/registration system.

 

Many distinct forms with information to both be added to a database or file, and e-mailed to them.  Each form should allow the user to add perhaps 100's of lines of information (not necessarily all at once) to the database or file.

 

A product inventory broken up into categories.  The ability to update said inventory with a form.  Each item (which are cards) will have several default messages, as well as the possibility of a user-defined message.

 

I'm thinking that between creating the scripts and testing them, this will take, on average, about 30 hours for me to do (the registration system and the forms seem to be tightly coupled, given the client's wants, so getting those sections to work right would take the most amount of time).  Is this reasonable?

[Ninjakreborn]

Whatever you do don't sell yourself short. I have had too much of that in my career.  Be confident above all. If there is something you don't know about ask someone.  Get the info, categorize it, make a quote and be confident in it>  Quote a little high in case if you have to negotiate.

You can charge anywhere from 10-120 dollars an hour and generally get work.  I chose 30 but normally go per project.

 

I would quote what you described to me at a flat fee of about 500 dollars.  I would devote full time to it, get it knocked out in 2 days, then you made yourself 500 bucks in 2 days.  If you think you can up the price slightly you might, but be careful on that kind of system, make sure you don't overshoot.

[obsidian]

If you think you can get it done reasonably within 30 hours, you need to quote them 50-60. You need to keep in mind that time is money, even when it is dealing with FTP errors and account setup and getting you access to their servers, etc... the list is endless. Besides that, there is a difference between quoting a company and giving them an estimate. If you are quoting, they may very well make very slight alteration to the requirements that will increase your time.

 

Basically, if you over quote, you can very easily cut them some slack on the price when the project is said and done; however, if you under guess, they will be very upset if you try to raise the price at the end, and you'll screw yourself over if you don't quote accurately. My rule of thumb is that I'll quote someone 80-100% longer than I think it will take me under ideal circumstances. If I get it done early, they're usually very happy to pay the full price and have it done early. In some rare cases, when I actually finish very early, I'll even give them a percentage off the balance due. They really like that. More often than not, though, I end up hitting pretty close to my quoted time after all the kinks that arise during normal development have worked out.

 

Just my 2 cents

[KevinM1]

Whatever you do don't sell yourself short. I have had too much of that in my career.  Be confident above all. If there is something you don't know about ask someone.  Get the info, categorize it, make a quote and be confident in it>  Quote a little high in case if you have to negotiate.

You can charge anywhere from 10-120 dollars an hour and generally get work.  I chose 30 but normally go per project.

 

I would quote what you described to me at a flat fee of about 500 dollars.  I would devote full time to it, get it knocked out in 2 days, then you made yourself 500 bucks in 2 days.  If you think you can up the price slightly you might, but be careful on that kind of system, make sure you don't overshoot.

 

Well, I'm not actually a full freelance businessman (heh, couldn't resist ) like you.  I work part-time for a local start-up computing company.  I'm the de facto web developer for the group, even though I'm still a newbie, so it's not just my reputation I have to consider.  I also have several other projects on my plate as well.

 

I'm just wondering if 30 hours is too much or too little time to quote for something like I mentioned above.  Obviously, I'll charge them whatever hours I work if I finish before then, I just don't want to quote them a specific amount of time only to say "Well, I'm only 3/4ths done, so do you mind paying me for another 10 hours of work?"

 

Obsidian: interesting advice.  I'm just not so sure my boss would go for that kind of buffer.  He seems to think I can do it in no more than 10-20 (at most) hours (although, he's not really web savvy, so yeah...office drama = good times ).  Seeing the sheer bulk of tedium the client is asking for, however, makes me think that 20 hours is impossible.  The forms they want are monstrous.

[obsidian]

I'm just not so sure my boss would go for that kind of buffer.  He seems to think I can do it in no more than 10-20 (at most) hours (although, he's not really web savvy, so yeah...office drama = good times ).  Seeing the sheer bulk of tedium the client is asking for, however, makes me think that 20 hours is impossible.  The forms they want are monstrous.

 

What's funny is that I always under-budgeted my time until I got this web dev job, and it's my boss that taught me the principle. His rule of thumb is, calculate ideal circumstances and double it. This even goes for large projects. We had one that I had to estimate for, and I came up with something like 180 hours on it. He quoted them 325, and we ended up hitting about the 280 mark because of all the client issues we ran into. It bites us sometimes, too, though. One other project was about a 40 hour one, we quoted 80 and we got it done in 35... those are by far the rarity, though.

[KevinM1]

I'm just not so sure my boss would go for that kind of buffer.  He seems to think I can do it in no more than 10-20 (at most) hours (although, he's not really web savvy, so yeah...office drama = good times ).  Seeing the sheer bulk of tedium the client is asking for, however, makes me think that 20 hours is impossible.  The forms they want are monstrous.

 

What's funny is that I always under-budgeted my time until I got this web dev job, and it's my boss that taught me the principle. His rule of thumb is, calculate ideal circumstances and double it. This even goes for large projects. We had one that I had to estimate for, and I came up with something like 180 hours on it. He quoted them 325, and we ended up hitting about the 280 mark because of all the client issues we ran into. It bites us sometimes, too, though. One other project was about a 40 hour one, we quoted 80 and we got it done in 35... those are by far the rarity, though.

 

I just don't see my boss going for something like that.  Part of the problem is that we're in a pretty web-ignorant part of the country (yay NH), so it seems as though not many of our clients really understand what goes into making a functional site.  Hell, like I intimated above, even my boss seems ignorant to some of the things I have to take into account (he's one of those people who thinks that Java and JavaScript are the same thing and that scripting is merely finding free code to download and plugging into a site).  And, naturally, my clients want something done fast and cheap.  The basic vibe I get from a lot of them is along the lines of, "My nephew can make a website in a couple hours (one that's plain HTML and created through Front Page, but they don't know that), so why can't you?"  Of course, this no doubt stems from the fact that we market ourselves to other small, local businesses.

[cmgmyr]

I'm actually pretty bad at this too, but I try and guess as best I can...but you should always quote more hours then what you initally think. I've been using AllNetic Working Time Tracker for tracking projects and tasks. This way the next time a similar project comes around you have a better knowledge of time spent on a specific task/project. I recommend that software for anyone...

[WebGeek182]

Proposals can be hard at first. Over time, it will get easier. I would say make your best estimate and then multiply it by 3. Seriously. When you're new you tend to underestimate the amount of time required. As you go, log your time for each project and you'll be able to estimate it a lot more accurately before too long.

[obsidian]

I would say make your best estimate and then multiply it by 3.

 

Wow... and people balk at my double it recommendation lol

[Ninjakreborn]

I like the double it, triple it idea.  Obviously the more you can get.  However I like markup based on price.  If it was originally going to be 300, I like putting it up to 500.  If we have to negotiate down from there, but leave the first quote I thought of in my head as the absolute minimum, so if I get above that I am even happier.  If it's like 500 I always markup to 7, if it's 1000 then normally I try to throw it up as high in the thousands as I think I can safety get with that client, then cut it down from there.

You would be surprised how many times a client was expecting to pay more than that.

I have a few times (fairly small project), I went over price with a client and decided on 575. at the end, he said he was expecting to may more like 1400, I lost out on 800 dollars, "because" I didn't prod around trying to get an estimate.  Lately I ask questions like "do you have a budget, it might or might not affect the price, but it will give me an idea, so I can tell you if it's even a possibility for that price range."  It's more of an excuse to get the price from there hands, then I throw it down 120-40 bucks to make them think I am not just quoting based on there budget, and it's normally rather high.

Another thing you can ask is "Is there a budget associated with the project", chances are you will get one.  Always base your markup based on deadline.  Kick the final price up about 5% for every 2-3 days the deadline is shorter than what you originally intended.  That way you can guarantee you are paid for the extra rush as well.  NEVER allow them to get around an agreement.  Make sure they know that you won't make permanent random changes for free (some people believe once you pay for them a project you are entitled to permanently work for them for small changes, without ever having to pay more.  Put a dead stop to this, it's using.  If they want to have work done, they need to pay for it, it destroyed my early career, and I was broke all the time, until I reformatted the way I dealt with that.

 

I say always double.  Because it's impossible (just about) to get a client who wants something originally done, and will actually get you to do just that.  95% of the time they want to make changes, or they are going to be hard to get along with, or they are going to say, well what about this.  Then if you try to quote them again at that stage, they normally freak out, get pissed, and kick you off the project.  If you account for a good number of this stuff ahead of time, they never realize that, and you are free to get away with them wanting some changes here and there, before you tell them they have to pay more.  If you double it, then you are pretty safe, you get the original amount you needed, plus more, that more can be put towards "freak occurrences of them asking you stuff extra".  then in the end if you tripled it, that gives you triple the padding, and you are really safe (however with extremely pissed off clients depending on the original price.  If a project is worth 500, and you triple it up to 1500, you won't get it.  So be careful when taking htat advice, be smart with it

[obsidian]

OK, I figure I might as well throw in my thought process from start to finish on a project. You need to set your corporate "rules" so to speak before you ever quote someone on an individual project. It always looks better to give them a discounted rate they can see than simply dropping your price for a quote. So, let's say I'm asked by someone to do a community website for them. My thought process may be similar to this:

 

Prerequisites:

• Rate: $75/hr
  
• Minimum 2 hours
  
• 50% Deposit required on all projects up to $5000
  
• 25% Deposit required on all project over $5000
  

 

Negotiations:

• I calculate the project will take 120 hours
  
• I quote the client 250 hours at $75/hr == $18,750
  
• Client responds that he has a $14K budget and asks for negotiation
  
• Knowing that his budget is 25% of my proposal, I attempt to meet in the middle
  
• Determine what the absolute lowest I'm willing to go is. In this case, I would be willing to work for his budget, but I would want to try and meet in the middle, first.
  
• I offer a 15% discount, which gets the quote to $16,900
  
• Client may refuse offer, counter offer or accept my proposal. Depending on response, we may need to repeat the last few steps
  
• Once an agreement is met, I actually bill him for my full quote amount less the percentage discount we agreed upon. This serves as a reminder to him that I have been willing to work with him and usually helps foster a willingness on the client's part to be flexible if and when issues arise.
  
• I gather my deposit (based on my corporate prerequisites above), and work out a payment plan that is workable with his budget.
  

 

In most cases, this leaves the client very pleased with the outcome. If at any time they want to back out, they understand that the deposit is non-refundable, and they are simply out the money. This way, you can get their commitment as well. You still have to be willing to be flexible on a project to project basis, but overall, you really need to come up with some personal fixed rules that you base your quotes on.

 

I also will take on some hourly work every once in a while, but only on projects where the specs are not able to be clearly defined. This allows for some flexibility, and it puts the client at ease that they can pull out with no restrictions if the price begins to reach outside their budget. Still, I require a reasonable deposit to show their commitment, but I do count the deposit on hourly projects toward the first X number of hours worked. At that point, work commences as long as they are paid up to date.

 

Hope this is of some help to someone, at least. It's not a "cure-all," but in my case, it has proven many times to be a very workable solution.

[cmgmyr]

Thanks for that obsidian that helped me out

 

Do you usually get those "bigger" jobs locally? or though something like guru.com? I've gotten a lot of work though guru, but I don't think any of them have been over $2,000. Locally I have done a lot better.

[Ninjakreborn]

It shouldn't be too hard for you to find higher paying projects.

Most of the one's I do aren't really high paid, they normally range between 500-1500 average.  Depending on the size.

 

I generally have a 500-700 minimum for an actual standard site creation.

I had one yesterday that quoted at 12,000 which was the highest I ever had, and it's a pretty big project.  I don't think you will find a lot of high paying projects on freelance site's, because of the intense competition.  A lot of the high end project come from something like a random occurrence.  Or mostly, what happens is you get a client, you do a project, make them very happy.  Generally when you get about 6-7 GOOD clients, that you do great work for, they come back.  Over time they start referencing you.  The big projects only come around occasionally, unless you specifically advertise in richer areas (you can gear your marketing to wherever you want.  For example put an ad out in a paper in las Vegas).  Just because you are working where you are, serve nationally and internationally.  Other states my have higher living rates, they might be use to getting more, and spending more than where your at.  So you have the living costs of where you live, but can get a wage as if you lived in Las Vegas, or California.  The price is highly dependent on area.  I work all over America, even a few people in great Britain, and a few other countries.  All from my own home.

 

At time's, the problem arises, I notice that it varies based on area.  Strictly because of this I gear 80% of my marketing straight towards Los Angeles, or surrounding cities in California. Another place I Focus is phoenix Arizona, and only have about 3 local clients.  All others are specifically geared toward states where I know people have money.  Another tactic could be to gear towards country who's conversion rate is great, (great Britain is a good example).  They can pay you 50 of there money, and end up being a little over 100 American.  I have one client in particular, I quote him about 85% more than I would an American client (because of the value of the money there), to him it means nothing, because it's what he is used to spending, it's not really a lot over there, but when it gets over here, and gets converted, it's quite a lot more than I would standardly make over here.

[Ninjakreborn]

Another thing to keep in mind is what obsidian said is Very IMportant.  if you don't have your own goals, and system, then you will be miserable.  This is what I faced at first.  I basically "restructured" my pricing, and my "process" about 8 times until i got it like it is now.  I am about to restructure it again, every time I do, I spend about 8 months seeing where it needs improved.  In that, work out a pricing structure, negotiation screen, what to do if something goes wrong (like the client trys to back out before negotiations are thought.  Try to decide ahead of time what your limits are on the price, even if the client tries to totally drop it. Set definite minimums.  Always look over project details and really, really try to determine all possible situations before going to the client for monetary negotiations IF they are local try to meet in person, or go out to eat with them to get a better setting.  If they are far away and have more than 1 partner involved, try to get them all on the phone at the same time, so you acne get strategically get there attention diverted away from budget less, and getting what they want more.  THe best advice anyone ever gave me was Andy.  "Time is money".  When I stopped wasting time, and started making money, things changed.

As far as pricing is concerned, if you setup a definite pricing structure for every possible situation (reasonable), you will never be left wondering (is this price too low, or too much).  Unless you get something you are unfamiliar with, in that case, work it out, then add it to your base cost plan of how much you generally charge, keep building the list to help you when that same type of work (situation) arises again.

[Ninjakreborn]

Sorry for the third post.

 

My rule of thumb is that I'll quote someone 80-100% longer than I think it will take me under ideal circumstances. If I get it done early, they're usually very happy to pay the full price and have it done early. In some rare cases, when I actually finish very early, I'll even give them a percentage off the balance due. They really like that. More often than not, though, I end up hitting pretty close to my quoted time after all the kinks that arise during normal development have worked out.

What obsidian said here, I think will be very helpful, and very accurate.  The happier they are at the end of the first project, the more likely they are to come back later.  The idea of giving them a quote, and then if you finish really early, cutting some off, I like the idea and will probably keep that in mind, that was very good advice.

[obsidian]

Thanks for that obsidian that helped me out

 

Do you usually get those "bigger" jobs locally? or though something like guru.com? I've gotten a lot of work though guru, but I don't think any of them have been over $2,000. Locally I have done a lot better.

 

It really varies. My biggest ones have been from fairly local (within 2-3 hour drive) that I have contacted through postings on Guru. The key, IMHO, is screening out the clients that don't know what they want/need but think they do. There are two types of clients that I am more than willing to work with: 1) those who don't know what it takes and are willing to listen and 2) those who have an understanding of what they are asking for and are willing to pay for quality. The key to keeping both types of clients is honesty and a good track record. I usually only contact people that state their budget is something within which I can work. I often challenge people to contact web design firms and compare pricing as well. Often, they will come back more than willing to pay your rates when they realize that they will pay 50-100% more at a firm. Again, the key, though, is pacing yourself and knowing your limitations. If you start quoting outrageous prices, you better be able to give an outrageous result in a reasonable amount of time.

[Ninjakreborn]

That is very true as well, I made that mistake when I first started.

Now I try to quote more reasonably.

[Daniel0]

from fairly local (within 2-3 hour drive)

Heh, I could get to the other end of the country (Denmark) within 3 hours... I consider 3 (and 2) hours of driving loooooooooong, and certainly not local. But I also live in a small country (only 42,394 sq km).

[obsidian]

Heh, I could get to the other end of the country (Denmark) within 3 hours... I consider 3 (and 2) hours of driving loooooooooong, and certainly not local. But I also live in a small country (only 42,394 sq km).

 

I hear that! I grew up in Guam, and if you drove more than 30 minutes in a given direction, you'd be in the ocean. This whole thing about driving hours on end I'm still getting used to.

[Nameless12]

My rule of thumb is that I'll quote someone 80-100% longer than I think it will take me under ideal circumstances.

 

I totally agree but would like to add a little something to what you said.

 

Try to get most of your code done ahead of time so you don't need to spend the time doing generic or repetitive stuff it will make your job more enjoyable and make it easier to meet deadlines.

 

Also try learn everything you will need to learn prior to getting work, learning on the job is time consuming and could possibly result in not getting your work done in time to meet your clients requirements.

 

[cmgmyr]

So I was just thinking...I think it would be a good idea to make a separate "quote this" board somewhere on the site. It would be where you can put up a project to be "quoted". Others can go on there, submit a "proposal" that they would charge and what that would include with a breakdown of hours and what-not. By doing this you can kinda see what other people would charge, so now you can go back to your client with a better idea about a proposal, breakdown, and hours.

 

Thoughts?

 

Please feel free to shoot this down, but I think it would be kinda cool and it would help a lot of people out.

[neylitalo]

I don't support this idea, for two reasons.

 

1) Business relationships are (or should be) strictly between the employer and the employee/contractor. I know that my employer wouldn't want me putting my project details on the internet, and they certainly wouldn't want me discussing my earnings with other people. They even often tell me that the project details are to be kept within the team, and it's been understood without mention from the start that my earnings are private.

 

2) You'll never be a successful businessperson if you don't learn what your skills are worth and how to get the most compensation for the work you're capable of. It's not something that you can be taught, you have to figure it out. (This is, for the most part, an opinion.)

[akitchin]

obsidian, your messages in this thread are really great insight on how to survive the murky waters of freelancing.  quoting has always been a pain in the side for me and even after 4 years, it becomes clear that i've more to learn.  thanks for everyone's input, by the way.

 

i wanted to add that having a standardized set of documents or a procedure you follow when in talks with a potential new client greatly aids you in the process.  this is obviously following on obsidian's comment about having your own rules; the documents help in reminding you of your rules and where you will/won't bend.  i can imagine it also looks great for a client to see an organized (and hopefully branded) quote.

[448191]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but in response to the OP's concern regarding variable development times:

 

Use a framework.

 

I used to be very much against using "other peoples' code", but in the past year I've more or less changed my standpoint on that.

 

I do recommend you make your own framework, but incorporate the abiblity to use other frameworks' components.

 

Besides the obvious advantage of reduced development time, it has one other significant one that adresses the concern in the OP:

 

Development time becomes more predictable.

[obsidian]

I don't support this idea

 

I agree for the simple fact that every quote should be based on your personal level of expertise in the area in which they are needing work done. If it is something I can get done in 2 hours, and I can get $200 for it, great. But, if it's going to take someone else 4 hours to do it, the client certainly shouldn't be paying more for the slower work. So, as I discover that there are areas I'm not as fluent in, my hourly rate I base my quote on should go down.

 

How does this affect the suggestion about opening a thread to discuss quotes? We have no clue what level everyone else is really at. It's very difficult to help someone put together a reasonable quote without having a very clear understanding of their level of work.

 

obsidian, your messages in this thread are really great insight on how to survive the murky waters of freelancing.  quoting has always been a pain in the side for me and even after 4 years, it becomes clear that i've more to learn.  thanks for everyone's input, by the way.

 

I'm glad it's been of some help. This is something that I've drilled my uncle about on many different occasions. He has been doing IT consulting and freelancing work for 30+ years, and he's definitely got some good insight into the matter. I was hesitant to post the lengthy threads above, because there seem to be so many more qualified people on these boards, but I'm glad my thoughts have been of some help.