Google Is dropping support for IE8

[scootstah]

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just the minority here, but I personally do NOT like companies FORCING me to upgrade to newer versions of their product!  Even FF and Chrome do not FORCE you to do this, they simply have it as a default to auto-update seemlessly, and it's mostly because they have shorter development cycles, right?  I'm sorry, but you can't really blame Microsoft for not FORCING people to update, and I personally would avoid a company that FORCES me to do it.  This is me speaking as a USER.

 

Yes, this makes my job as a developer harder, but should a company cater to developers, or to users?  Think about it. 

 

Perhaps force was not the right word. But, seamless, automatic updates would be a huge benefit no less. Sure, have the option to disable it if you want. But, by default, it should update automatically. Your average consumer that is still using IE7 or 8 obviously doesn't understand that they need to update their browser. Making IE auto-update would solve a lot of problems.

 

In fact, dropping in a Windows update that automatically updated old versions of IE would be pretty slick as well. Bump everyone that updates Windows up to the latest version of IE.

[Mahngiel]

Give Windows long enough and it'll require a reinstall.  At which point IE8 isn't even downloadable from MS.com 

[The Little Guy]

Not sure if you read my last post but IE is built into the os, so you would need to restart the computer to see the updates take affect.

[Adam]

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just the minority here, but I personally do NOT like companies FORCING me to upgrade to newer versions of their product!

 

Do you use Windows? Ever seen those pop-ups after an automatic update saying "you've got x minutes to click cancel or we're going to reboot your computer"? .. Then after you click cancel it pops back up again 4 hours later, and every 4 hours until it catches you AFK.

 

I'm aware you can disable auto updates and the auto reboot (though that's not exactly straight-forward), but it's the default behaviour.

[.josh]

At this point, the only thing that really sucks about IE is that so many people use older versions of it instead of upgrading, and who's fault is that?  Of course, it's totally Microsoft's fault, because, Microsoft is evil and sucks.  /rolleyes.

 

It is indeed MS's fault. Why would you NOT have silent updates?  Corporate IT departments have their systems on lock-down, which doesn't even allow users to upgrade to newer versions of IE!  At least if MS had silent updates they could be batched in.

 

Okay but now you are confusing personal user choice with corporate policy, which are two completely different beasts.  And still somehow making out like that's Microsoft's fault.  Why would you NOT have silent updates?  Because maybe sometimes updates involve changes to things that end users might not agree with?  What if one of these "updates" involve sending data to them that you don't want to be sent? What if these "updates" involve having to suddenly start paying for it? What if the "update" sported a new interface that you really fucking hated, or made a lot of your favorite addons no longer compatible?  The list goes on and on.  Why am I even arguing this..  I, as the user, should have the choice on whether or not to upgrade, how is this not common sense?

 

 

BTW, jQuery is dropping IE8 too.

 

Good for them, and I'm not saying I'm against this.  But I'm willing to stake my left nutsack on the fact that people will stop upgrading to the latest version of jQuery, so as to keep support for older browsers, since at the end of the day, it's about the user, not the developer.

 

I'm sorry, but you can't really blame Microsoft for not FORCING people to update, and I personally would avoid a company that FORCES me to do it.  This is me speaking as a USER.

 

The mere option would be beneficial.

 

Please clarify, because I don't understand...do you mean to say that users currently don't have the option to upgrade?  Because that is just false.  The general windows updates try to prompt you to upgrade.  Opening an older IE browser attempts to get you to upgrade.  You can just go to microsoft.com and download it.  New computers come with the latest version, etc... it is not as if Microsoft is doing nothing to try and get people to upgrade; they are doing lots of stuff, just short of forcing them to, and that's fine, because again, I, as a user, do NOT want to be forced to upgrade my shit.  It's my computer, my decision, my downfall if evil bad things come of it. 

 

Or are you still going on about employees not being able to upgrade because of IT freezes? Again, you are mistaken; company red-tape is not Microsoft's fault.

 

 

 

 

[kicken]

At this point, the only thing that really sucks about IE is that so many people use older versions of it instead of upgrading, and who's fault is that?  Of course, it's totally Microsoft's fault, because, Microsoft is evil and sucks.  /rolleyes.

 

It is indeed MS's fault. Why would you NOT have silent updates?

 

MS makes as good as effort as any other place really in trying to get people to update.  They push out their updates using an automatic update system which under a typical install will silently update all your stuff automatically.  People who do not update don't because they either 1) Choose not to or 2) Are in an environment where they can't

 

Unless you like living on the bleeding edge of new tech IE has been perfectly fine since version 8 generally.  And if you are one of those people that wants to live on the bleeding edge then you're the one causing yourself problems, not MS or IE. 

 

 

Not sure if you read my last post but IE is built into the os, so you would need to restart the computer to see the updates take affect.

 

That hasn't been true since Vista.

 

 

IE9 still doesn't support as many HTML5 or CSS3 features as other browsers.

 

HTML5 and a good chunk of CSS3 has not even been finalized yet.  Why should MS expend a bunch of effort implementing stuff that may change?  MS is just a little bit more conservative on what they choose to implement.  If something is brand spanking new and changes every couple months they tend to leave it alone.  Once it get more stable they will implement it.  Again, if you want to be using these brand new not even standardized yet features, then don't complain when things either don't support them, or support an older/different spec.

 

 

All that said, I am myself a fan of chrome and wish the whole world ran on it, but I also agree with .josh in that a lot of people are bashing IE these days when there is no good reason to be doing so anymore.

 

[Mahngiel]

Why would you NOT have silent updates?  Because maybe sometimes updates involve changes to things that end users might not agree with?  What if one of these "updates" involve sending data to them that you don't want to be sent? What if these "updates" involve having to suddenly start paying for it? What if the "update" sported a new interface that you really fucking hated, or made a lot of your favorite addons no longer compatible?  The list goes on and on.  Why am I even arguing this..  I, as the user, should have the choice on whether or not to upgrade, how is this not common sense?

 

If you tell me you read the changelog to a kernel on your nix server, I'll buy it. But if you're trying to tell me/us that you proof every changelog for your FF, I call bullshit.  A majority of updates are bugfixes and vulnerability updates, there's a reason they're pushed.  They are also updates/upgrades to the browser engine which are vital to the living web.

 

I get your point about you being the user, but 99.9% of the time, you, the user, don't have a fucking clue about what you need.

 

Good for them, and I'm not saying I'm against this.  But I'm willing to stake my left nutsack on the fact that people will stop upgrading to the latest version of jQuery, so as to keep support for older browsers, since at the end of the day, it's about the user, not the developer.

 

I will only give you partial credit for this.  Those who are still on the MS PR teet will do so, continuing to cater to a) communist china and b) ignorant masses.  It is the responsibility of web creators to steer the web and leave behind old habits.

 

With many corporations running enterprise solutions on their computers through intranets, it makes business sense NOT to update.  Aside from those scenarios, it makes little sense why batch updates couldn't be pushed out.  Holy hell, how long has IE8 and 9 been out?

 

Please clarify, because I don't understand...do you mean to say that users currently don't have the option to upgrade?  Because that is just false.  The general windows updates try to prompt you to upgrade.

 

After how long, .josh?  When are these updates released?  IE10 is the closest MS has gotten to "standards" and it won't even be out until Win8!  What about 7 users?  XP??  The problem is that MS did not have the forethought to include the ability for updates to the browser without major releases or SPs.    Had this been an option, I guarantee IE8 have would seen engine modifications to adapt to the newer specs.

 

[KevinM1]

IE 8 was solid.  IE 9+ are fine browsers.  As a company, Microsoft has embraced HTML 5.  It's what the Metro interface and apps use for their display layer (along with JavaScript and CSS).  It allows them to save money (goodbye Silverlight, and other entirely proprietary solutions) while making it easier for devs to jump over to the dark side.

 

The Microsoft of today is not the Microsoft of the early-to-mid 2000's.  Yes, they're still lumbering, slow to change, and make questionable decisions (I think Win8 is going to bomb spectacularly), but they're not completely horrible.

 

Their next big fight will likely be in the online marketplace.  The current rules would make it difficult/impossible for a distributor like Steam to get on a Win8 system, and MS has been toying with perpetual license renewals for staple software like Office to the cost of $99/year.  That's where the old, evil, "are you friggin' kidding me?" Microsoft has appeared as of late.

 

But, yeah, on the browser/web development side, MS has really modernized and evolved.

[Adam]

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just the minority here, but I personally do NOT like companies FORCING me to upgrade to newer versions of their product!

 

Oh by the way, in the next version of FF it will update automatically in the background

[The Little Guy]

(I think Win8 is going to bomb spectacularly)

 

I disagree, I played with it some yesterday and it had some really nice features!

 

The removed the start menu and replaced it with the fancy start screen, that basically does the same thing just looks different. Other than that I saw all the features of Windows 7 with some cool add-ons. Like I read yesterday: It is going to take time to get used to it, just like we had to get used to windows adding the start menu in windows 95.

[scootstah]

just short of forcing them to, and that's fine, because again, I, as a user, do NOT want to be forced to upgrade my shit.  It's my computer, my decision, my downfall if evil bad things come of it. 

 

Yeah, but that's exactly what the average consumer needs. You are a power user, you can make a conscious decision whether or not you want to upgrade, and you understand the repercussions of each. Someone like my grandmother doesn't know, or care, about updating their browser. She doesn't understand that the website is all fucked up because she's (unknowingly) using a 5 year old browser.

 

I suspect the large majority of people still using IE7 or 8 are in this boat. And while that is not directly Microsoft's fault, Microsoft does have control over it. They could automatically update the browser. They silently update other aspects of Windows with Windows Updates why not the browser?

 

Hell, they could make a "special" version that doesn't even change the appearance of the browser and keeps all settings intact, but under the hood, it is updated.

[.josh]

It just boggles my mind how some of you really think it's a good idea to force updates. You guys just can't see past your own editor and how much harder it is for you to do your job, can't see the bigger picture.

 

I understand that the internet is big and bad and scary, especially to dear, sweet grandma who doesn't know any better. But perhaps instead of blaming Microsoft for her ignorance, you could perhaps take some time out of your busy schedule and be a dear, sweet grandchild and walk her through it? Just a suggestion...

 

But even for those other old and otherwise clueless people who aren't fortunate enough to have model relatives such as yourself...I mean seriously...who the fuck are you to decide what's best for someone else? Especially in regards to something that is not some life threatening/sustaining thing? Why stop there? Why not have computer manufacturers force people to not use internet explorer? Hardcode that shit directly into the circuits! Make the computer physically turn off if someone even tries to download or open IE! Or how about let's just pass some laws to make IE illegal! You know what's best for them, afterall.

 

It should be the user's choice whether to upgrade or not. It doesn't matter how big and bad and scary it is out there. You don't get to tell me what's best for me or my grandma, nor do you get to determine whether or not I'm a "power user" who can competently make that decision. And wtf is that anyways, how can you logically say that people should be forced to upgrade, AND say that there are some people competent enough to be an exception? Those 2 things are mutually exclusive.

 

Telling me you know what's best for me and forcing me to do something is Gestapo bullshit.

 

*.josh falls of soapbox

[Philip]

Someone is testy today...

[Jessica]

*jesirose wonders if .josh is the inspiration for Ron Swanson.

[Mahngiel]

It just boggles my mind how some of you really think it's a good idea to force updates.  You guys just can't see past your own editor and how much harder it is for you to do your job, can't see the bigger picture.

This is where you've had too much of the MS PR Kool-aid.  My disdain for the browser has nothing to do with how hard it makes my job, it's about how shitty it makes the internet.  From gaping security holes to "compatibility" mode, IE has always been a step behind in delivering Web 2.0.

 

...I mean seriously...who the fuck are you to decide what's best for someone else? 

 

I am a creator of the web.  Users come to MY sites to view MY product how I designed it.  Use a fucking browser that works.

 

 

[scootstah]

It just boggles my mind how some of you really think it's a good idea to force updates.  You guys just can't see past your own editor and how much harder it is for you to do your job, can't see the bigger picture.

 

I understand that the internet is big and bad and scary, especially to dear, sweet grandma who doesn't know any better.  But perhaps instead of blaming Microsoft for her ignorance, you could perhaps take some time out of your busy schedule and be a dear, sweet grandchild and walk her through it?  Just a suggestion...

 

But even for those other old and otherwise clueless people who aren't fortunate enough to have model relatives such as yourself...I mean seriously...who the fuck are you to decide what's best for someone else?  Especially in regards to something that is not some life threatening/sustaining thing?  Why stop there?  Why not have computer manufacturers force people to not use internet explorer?  Hardcode that shit directly into the circuits!  Make the computer physically turn off if someone even tries to download or open IE!  Or how about let's just pass some laws to make IE illegal!  You know what's best for them, afterall. 

 

It should be the user's choice whether to upgrade or not.  It doesn't matter how big and bad and scary it is out there.  You don't get to tell me what's best for me or my grandma, nor do you get to determine whether or not I'm a "power user" who can competently make that decision.  And wtf is that anyways, how can you logically say that people should be forced to upgrade, AND say that there are some people competent enough to be an exception?  Those 2 things are mutually exclusive. 

 

Telling me you know what's best for me and forcing me to do something is Gestapo bullshit.

 

*.josh falls of soapbox

 

Without automatic updates, IE will never be comparable to other modern browsers.

 

The web evolves quickly. If you want support for the latest and greatest, you need to be using the latest and greatest.

 

If you enjoy spending a considerable amount of time making sure that your applications work with an old, decrepit, legacy browser then so be it. I would prefer to work with cool new technologies. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[.josh]

It just boggles my mind how some of you really think it's a good idea to force updates.  You guys just can't see past your own editor and how much harder it is for you to do your job, can't see the bigger picture.

This is where you've had too much of the MS PR Kool-aid. 

Like I said, I'm not an IE (or MS) fanboy, and in fact, I use FF and Chrome.  Frankly I find it annoying that I'm constantly being forced to defend MS because people happily go along with the mob mentality instead of actually look at the facts.

 

My disdain for the browser has nothing to do with how hard it makes my job, it's about how shitty it makes the internet.

 

Browsers don't make the internet shitty, shitty web servers and poorly designed sites made by amateurs and lazy fucks who can't be bothered to cater to their customers make the web shitty.  Your thought process is basically make the browsers cater to websites instead of make websites cater to browsers.  Well guess what, that will NEVER happen because there's a handful of browsers vs. a metric fuckton of arbitrarily coded websites. 

 

From gaping security holes

 

Right, because FF, Chrome, Safari, etc.. have never had security holes, and have never had to release patches.  "Gaping." Can you name even ONE "gaping" security hole they've had, without looking it up and c/ping it here and very likely not understanding what the issue actually is or even how to actually exploit it? Or are you just able to regurgitate some key phrases from some random blog/article you read?  Can you even point to said blog/article w/out googling?  Perhaps you are some uber security expert and will make me eat my words, but I'm willing to place bets that you aren't.  In fact, I'm willing to bet that not only have you not actually read up on any of these "gaping security holes," this is just something you've heard standing around the proverbial water cooler (random shit you've read secondhand on some random forum).  But maybe, just maybe you will make me eat my words.  No cheating.

 

to "compatibility" mode,

 

So you don't like this mode...why?  Near as I can tell, this mode is FOR developers to make it easier to develop their sites for earlier IE versions, because of people not upgrading. 

 

IE has always been a step behind in delivering Web 2.0.

 

Well whatever respect I had for you just went out the window from this statement right here.  Web 2.0, really?  Still holding onto that buzzword, eh?  And you say I'm the one drinking  too much PR koolaid...

 

...I mean seriously...who the fuck are you to decide what's best for someone else? 

I am a creator of the web.  Users come to MY sites to view MY product how I designed it.  Use a fucking browser that works.

 

And this right here demonstrates your failure to understand business 101.  If 50% of your customers don't like mustard as the default ingredient on your burger, you don't tell them to suck it up, you take the fucking mustard off as the default condiment.  Or you watch your customers and your paycheck walk out the door as they go to other places who cater to them.  You serve the customer, not the other way around.

 

 

 

[.josh]

Without automatic updates, IE will never be comparable to other modern browsers.

 

Examples of how this is true?

 

The web evolves quickly. If you want support for the latest and greatest, you need to be using the latest and greatest.

 

I personally will agree with this statement.  However, in general, the average user is not inclined to have the latest and greatest.  Proof?  Well we're having this conversation about a significant portion of the internet not upgrading to the latest and greatest, now aren't we?

 

If you enjoy spending a considerable amount of time making sure that your applications work with an old, decrepit, legacy browser then so be it. I would prefer to work with cool new technologies.

 

You are making a false... conclusion? inference? correlation?  I agree with this statement.  I agree that it makes my job as a developer harder.  I even said that in an earlier post.  But this isn't about the user, or even browsers catering to websites.  This is about giving the customer what they want; refer to my hamburger analogy in my previous post.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Okay, that is fine, peace.

[scootstah]

Without automatic updates, IE will never be comparable to other modern browsers.

 

Examples of how this is true?

 

Because the general population of IE users will always be years behind the users of other browsers which are updated more frequently. Firefox and Chrome push major versions several times per year. IE pushes major versions every what, year? Two years? So anything that happens to come about during that time span which isn't supported will have to wait until the next version of IE, which may or may not implement it. On top of that, users who do not manually update will be waiting many years until they either: A. Update IE, B. Choose a different browser, or C. Buy a new computer which includes a more up-to-date operating system/browser.

[KevinM1]

I'm a bit split on the update issue.  I agree with Josh in that I think users should be able to update (or not) when they want.  That said, IE needs to inform the user when an update is available, and the benefits to updating.  A lot of people don't update because they don't realize it's an option.  Shit, there is still a not-insignificant number of people who are certain that Windows Update will irrevocably damage their PC because they read it on Facebook/a fake chain letter/heard it from their grandson/nephew.

[Monkuar]

Mahngiel has made some great points.... IE10 took forever. 

 

.josh made some good points too, ie 9 is okay they all have their problems and stuff but i think it's safe to say that

 

the only reason ie has any market share is because it comes pre-installed on windows.....  lmfao other than that, it's complete trash

[The Little Guy]

...I mean seriously...who the fuck are you to decide what's best for someone else? 

I am a creator of the web.  Users come to MY sites to view MY product how I designed it.  Use a fucking browser that works.

 

And this right here demonstrates your failure to understand business 101.  If 50% of your customers don't like mustard as the default ingredient on your burger, you don't tell them to suck it up, you take the fucking mustard off as the default condiment.  Or you watch your customers and your paycheck walk out the door as they go to other places who cater to them.  You serve the customer, not the other way around.

 

Um... wouldn't this hold true to web browsers too, and not just web developers?

[Mahngiel]

...I mean seriously...who the fuck are you to decide what's best for someone else? 

I am a creator of the web.  Users come to MY sites to view MY product how I designed it.  Use a fucking browser that works.

 

And this right here demonstrates your failure to understand business 101.  If 50% of your customers don't like mustard as the default ingredient on your burger, you don't tell them to suck it up, you take the fucking mustard off as the default condiment.  Or you watch your customers and your paycheck walk out the door as they go to other places who cater to them.  You serve the customer, not the other way around.

 

Development / design are not hotdogs - there is no recipe.  Users do not know what they want, nor how they want it, so your point is completely invalid.  There's a billion-dollar business out there who's (departed) CEO's mission statement was

people don?t know what they want until you show it to them.

Forbes

[kicken]

Forbes

 

Your own article link agrees with .josh

 

"A lot of times, people don?t know what they want until you show it to them."  I actually think Jobs was right but only in the very narrow category to which he aspired: where his products, such as the Mac, iPod, iPhone and iPad, either redefined or created product categories. That's not the domain in which most businesses play. Remember also that Jobs backed up his unique insights with an enormously expensive creative process populated by world-class designers.  Without Jobs' talents and the unparalleled creative team and processes that he built around himself, you won't get away with doing no market research and not listening to your customers.

emphasis added.

 

I've had on occasion in the past certain software that I like come out with a new version I don't like.  Most of the time the existing software has been good enough so I continue to use it vs upgrade.  I'd be rather upset if it just force-upgraded me into something I didn't want because they think they know better about what I need.  As a somewhat current example, windows 8.  I've tried it and I don't much care for it.  I would be rather upset if MS just came along and auto-updated me to windows 8 without my consent.

 

Um... wouldn't this hold true to web browsers too, and not just web developers?

 

Sure, which is why MS has made leaps and bounds trying get IE caught up with the rest of the world.  At this point they have caught up to the point that their produce is as good as anyone else's for the vast majority of people.

 

[.josh]

...I mean seriously...who the fuck are you to decide what's best for someone else? 

I am a creator of the web.  Users come to MY sites to view MY product how I designed it.  Use a fucking browser that works.

 

And this right here demonstrates your failure to understand business 101.  If 50% of your customers don't like mustard as the default ingredient on your burger, you don't tell them to suck it up, you take the fucking mustard off as the default condiment.  Or you watch your customers and your paycheck walk out the door as they go to other places who cater to them.  You serve the customer, not the other way around.

 

Um... wouldn't this hold true to web browsers too, and not just web developers?

 

In theory, yes.  But in reality, things aren't as balanced.

 

Browser: You basically have a handful of browsers to choose from (that the masses have heard of and care about):  IE, FireFox, Chrome, Safari, Opera.  Those are the 5 major ones (though honestly, the last 2 in most people's opinions don't have enough % for people to try and specifically give a damn about, unless they are filling a certain niche audience).  Since there are so few choices, people like Microsoft can more afford to have the "my way or the highway" attitude.  If enough people complain and move from IE to FF or Chrome or some other browser because IE doesn't follow the same update model as everybody else, then IE will either have to change their model to follow suit, or else watch their users walk out the door.  But in reality, we see a whole lot of people NOT leaving IE for <insert reason here>.  Is it because people are too lazy to change? Is it because MS owns their soul?  The reason is irrelevant in this discussion.  The point is, IE does have a significant share of the population, enough that they aren't particularly inclined to change their model.

 

Website: For example, if you want to go online to purchase something, there are literally hundreds and thousands of different sites you can go to, to buy pretty much anything.  Dime a dozen.  So a website is under a LOT more pressure to cater to certain things.  A good business will say "Yeah, I have to do a little extra work that makes my site work properly across all browsers, and yeah, things would be easier if IE did things differently, but if I do not make it work for IE, most people will not buy from me, so I'd better do it." 

 

Here's the thing I don't understand...people have been arguing that IE hasn't been "conforming to standards" even when they owned like 90% of the market.  This is common fucking sense...if you own 90% of the market, YOU are the fucking standard, and it is EVERYBODY ELSE that is not conforming.  And over the years we have seen IE's market share go down.  Now we can go back and forth all day long about the "whys" behind that (hint: the decline has almost nothing to do with how much harder it allegedly is for web devs to work with; web devs really need to get over themselves), but the overall point is that less market share == less power to say "my way or the highway". 

 

P.s.- "my way or the highway" isn't necessarily a bad mentality.  If what you are doing is dominating the market, you are probably something right.  Or you could be doing something shady like putting in the fine print that you now own their soul.  Point is, you are dominating the market BY doing things your way, so it makes sense the more you dominate the market, the more you are inclined to do things your way.

 

Anyways, the point is, in theory, principles apply to both browser and website.  In practice, other things affect how well this theory actually plays out.  Just because something looks good, sounds reasonable, logical, ideal, etc.. on paper, doesn't mean that's how it will work or play out in reality.  This is a huge gap a lot of web devs fail to overcome when it comes to understanding the business world.  The overall point is, it doesn't matter how stupid or illogical something is, you give the people what they want.  And if you own 90% of the market, you ARE giving the people what they want, by virtue of having 90% of the market. 

 

And again, IE's slow but steadily decline is proving they are less and less giving the people what they want, but they still have a significant enough share that they aren't exactly pushed up against the wall.  You also have to consider that IE is one product of MS, a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things to them.  This puts them in a way better position to not give as much a shit about changing things than the other browsers who's entire company revolves around their browser.  Does that mean they are doing nothing to stay in the game? Of course not...despite IE being just one thing to MS, they still give a shit, otherwise they wouldn't be making efforts to get with the program.

 

Look, I personally like automatic updates, and I usually have them on by default.  The key thing I argue for having here is provide ability to turn this off.  I do NOT want to be forced into it.  Others feel that it should be forced, as if someone else should determine what's best for them.  To that I must question how many times they have been forced to do something they didn't want to do.