Google Is dropping support for IE8

[.josh]

...I mean seriously...who the fuck are you to decide what's best for someone else? 

I am a creator of the web.  Users come to MY sites to view MY product how I designed it.  Use a fucking browser that works.

 

And this right here demonstrates your failure to understand business 101.  If 50% of your customers don't like mustard as the default ingredient on your burger, you don't tell them to suck it up, you take the fucking mustard off as the default condiment.  Or you watch your customers and your paycheck walk out the door as they go to other places who cater to them.  You serve the customer, not the other way around.

 

Development / design are not hotdogs - there is no recipe. 

 

You have completely missed the point of the analogy, good for you.

 

Users do not know what they want, nor how they want it, so your point is completely invalid.

 

Wrong.  A customer very much knows exactly what they want to buy when they go to your site, and they know that having to jump through 100 hoops to buy it sucks balls.  Your site doesn't like IE and that's the browser they use?  You are an idiot if you think that visitor is going to go download another browser to buy what they want from you.  They will go somewhere else that does, simple as that, the end.  And how many of those people you are basically calling idiots...how many of them do you think are going to tell all their friends "I went to xyz.com and it didn't work with IE so I left," vs. "The site was broken, so I left" ?  You are an idiot if you think it's option #1.  And it doesn't matter if they are wrong.  THEY are the ones with the money that you just kicked out the door.  "The customer is always right."  This is a saying that has become a bane for many people, especially in the McJob industry, but not because it's not true - it very much is - but because some companies take it to extremes.  Hint: catering to a browser that holds a significant % of the market is not taking it to extremes.

 

There's a billion-dollar business out there who's (departed) CEO's mission statement was

people don?t know what they want until you show it to them.

Forbes

 

And you have completely missed the point and context of that statement because you don't understand business.

[Jessica]

There's a billion-dollar business out there who's (departed) CEO's mission statement was

people don?t know what they want until you show it to them.

Forbes

 

And if you can't show it to them because your site doesn't work correctly in the browser they use, they can never learn that they want it.

[Mahngiel]

And you have completely missed the point and context of that statement because you don't understand business.

 

You're quite incorrect there, and you've missed the entire purpose of my argument.  There's a reason javascript frameworks are bloated with code specifically for IE.  There's a reason the "shiv" market is expansive.  There's a reason massively-scaled entities are dropping support for old versions.  IE is the only browser that has this issue, why is that even debated?  Cheers for IE bringing 9 and 10 (eventually) to the market place, what these are/will be are what the previous versions should have been. 

 

It's my opinion that the development community should foster and promote the growth of the web, instead of holding on to the old and out-dated.  You want to talk about business sense? How about not dedicating resources to worry about defunct browsers.

 

You may hold on to jQuery 1.99 with IE6 support, but I won't.  I congratulate everybody who focuses on the future without hanging onto old baggage.

[.josh]

It doesn't matter if a product is on version 9000, if most people are currently using version 1.0, you cater to 1.0 or you don't have customers or a business.  In no way do I say this situation doesn't suck from a developer PoV.  Of course it sucks, I completely agree.  But that's not the point, and you fail to understand the point; I really don't understand how you can possibly fail to understand this.  Sorry Mahngiel, but I think I"m done with you, as I feel I'm talking to a brick wall.  Peace.

[KevinM1]

It's my opinion that the development community should foster and promote the growth of the web, instead of holding on to the old and out-dated.  You want to talk about business sense? How about not dedicating resources to worry about defunct browsers.

 

It's not as simple as "I'm never going to support old browsers" or "I'm always going to support old browsers."  Instead, there's an intersection between the cost of supporting those old browsers and the amount of revenue that population brings in.  To blindly say, "Fuck 'em.  Update or go screw yourself," might be noble, and it might get you internet cred, but from a business POV it's shortsighted.  It's intentionally dismissing a potential pool of revenue.

 

Now, maybe you can afford to not cater to that population.  Fine.  Many developers cannot ignore them, however.

 

Keep in mind, no one is saying "IE 6/7 is teh bestest!!!!11!"  What we're saying is, although they suck to develop for, ignoring them is often more costly than working around their limitations.

 

Now, developers should keep making a big stink about how badly they suck, but they need to do it in a positive way.  Instead of just giving the middle finger to the people who have the old browsers, give them a bare-bones but functional site with a hint of what they could experience if they upgraded (along with info about how to upgrade, links, and reassurances that upgrading won't kill their PC).  Entice them to switch rather than ignore them and deride them from on high.

[scootstah]

It doesn't matter if a product is on version 9000, if most people are currently using version 1.0, you cater to 1.0 or you don't have customers or a business.

 

Which is exactly why IE needs a better update model. Okay, it "notifies" the user that there is an update. Clearly, though, that is not good enough. Sure, you don't like the idea of forcing a user to upgrade. But, is there some benefit that I'm failing to see to using an outdated browser that can't render websites properly? Otherwise, why else would people keep doing it?

 

Why? Because they don't know any better. This is a problem, and it needs a solution. It doesn't matter if Microsoft has suddenly turned their ways and is going to start adhering to W3C specifications and such. If they only push a major update every couple years, they're always going to be behind the game, and their users are always going to be stuck behind on outdated versions.

 

In my mind, that is the opposite of caring about your customers. It's like letting 30% of your customers drive around in golf carts when you could shove them out of the seat and into a Lamborghini with the flick of a finger.

[.josh]

It doesn't matter if a product is on version 9000, if most people are currently using version 1.0, you cater to 1.0 or you don't have customers or a business.

 

Which is exactly why IE needs a better update model. Okay, it "notifies" the user that there is an update. Clearly, though, that is not good enough. Sure, you don't like the idea of forcing a user to upgrade. But, is there some benefit that I'm failing to see to using an outdated browser that can't render websites properly? Otherwise, why else would people keep doing it?

 

I have explained why I don't like being forced to update my software in several posts. For browsers specifically, you know that in reality, updates aren't just about improving code performance, compatibility or security.  Updates can also be UI changes, changes in privacy policy, data collection, etc..

 

Also, I have said that overall I personally do like having automatic updates, but here is one thing I do not like about them: For my job, I depend on certain addons.  For instance in FireFox, I depend on the web developer addon, firebug, omnibug (an extension to firebug) and a few others.  Now, whenever FireFox releases an update, those addons may possibly still be compatible, or they may cease to function until they in turn update.  For the most part, most of the addons I use have not been a problem.  They are popular and active enough that even if they need to update, they are usually pretty quick to do so. 

 

But sometimes...every once in a while I will open an email from a client and they will have a question about tracking on a page and I will open up my browser to check it out and blam...FireFox is installing an update and blam, firebug doesn't work.  Or some other addon I need.  So I have to wait a couple hours or days for the addons to catch up.  Or use alternative/equivalent means to QA something.  This is inconvenient for me, and slows down my response time at work.  Do I have this problem with IE development cycle? No! Because they don't constantly update their shit and possibly break other people's shit because of it.

 

Why? Because they don't know any better. This is a problem, and it needs a solution. It doesn't matter if Microsoft has suddenly turned their ways and is going to start adhering to W3C specifications and such. If they only push a major update every couple years, they're always going to be behind the game, and their users are always going to be stuck behind on outdated versions.

 

And if this was really true, ten they will fail in the browser market and never be heard of again.  Let time decide. 

 

In my mind, that is the opposite of caring about your customers. It's like letting 30% of your customers drive around in golf carts when you could shove them out of the seat and into a Lamborghini with the flick of a finger.

 

But it's not your right to make that call.  Caring about your customers means giving them every opportunity to upgrade.  Informing them of the benefits.  Give some kind of incentive.  But the moment you decide to make their decision for them, that is not caring for them, that is writing them off as invalids who don't know any better, just like you said.  You are no longer treating and respecting them as humans who have the right to stand or fall on their own two legs.  You are treating them as invalids, cripples, sub-humans, not equal to you.  You are putting them on a lower level as you, treating them as pets, no matter how kindly you do it.  How can you say that is caring for them? 

[Adam]

But sometimes...every once in a while I will open an email from a client and they will have a question about tracking on a page and I will open up my browser to check it out and blam...FireFox is installing an update and blam, firebug doesn't work.  Or some other addon I need.  So I have to wait a couple hours or days for the addons to catch up.  Or use alternative/equivalent means to QA something.  This is inconvenient for me, and slows down my response time at work.  Do I have this problem with IE development cycle? No! Because they don't constantly update their shit and possibly break other people's shit because of it.

 

Don't think I've ever heard a better reason to switch to Chrome.

[.josh]

But sometimes...every once in a while I will open an email from a client and they will have a question about tracking on a page and I will open up my browser to check it out and blam...FireFox is installing an update and blam, firebug doesn't work.  Or some other addon I need.  So I have to wait a couple hours or days for the addons to catch up.  Or use alternative/equivalent means to QA something.  This is inconvenient for me, and slows down my response time at work.  Do I have this problem with IE development cycle? No! Because they don't constantly update their shit and possibly break other people's shit because of it.

 

Don't think I've ever heard a better reason to switch to Chrome.

 

And this is a major reason why phil has so far been successful at seducing me to switch to Chrome   but there are some addons in FF that I use that make it mighty convenient to do my job (namely Omnibug which basically is what you'd find in a Net tab but it looks for specific requests and formats url params nicer, even converting them to original tracking code js variable names.  Necessary to do my job? No.  Mighty convenient? Yes), that Chrome doesn't offer out-of-the-box. And neither does FF, but there isn't a Chrome equivalent addon (that I'm aware of) and even if there were, it'd be the same song and dance with chrome updates.  The overall point is, frequent automatic updates will be at odds with addons/extensions, that is a downside to the convenience.

[scootstah]

But sometimes...every once in a while I will open an email from a client and they will have a question about tracking on a page and I will open up my browser to check it out and blam...FireFox is installing an update and blam, firebug doesn't work.  Or some other addon I need.  So I have to wait a couple hours or days for the addons to catch up.  Or use alternative/equivalent means to QA something.  This is inconvenient for me, and slows down my response time at work.  Do I have this problem with IE development cycle? No! Because they don't constantly update their shit and possibly break other people's shit because of it.

 

You make this out to be a much bigger problem than it really is. Click Tools, Options, Advanced, Updates, tick "Check for updates but let me install them". Viola, you will never have that problem again.

 

I doubt like hell that the vast majority of IE7 or 8 users have this problem.

 

All I am saying is Microsoft should auto-update by default, and allow users to opt out.

[.josh]

But sometimes...every once in a while I will open an email from a client and they will have a question about tracking on a page and I will open up my browser to check it out and blam...FireFox is installing an update and blam, firebug doesn't work.  Or some other addon I need.  So I have to wait a couple hours or days for the addons to catch up.  Or use alternative/equivalent means to QA something.  This is inconvenient for me, and slows down my response time at work.  Do I have this problem with IE development cycle? No! Because they don't constantly update their shit and possibly break other people's shit because of it.

 

You make this out to be a much bigger problem than it really is. Click Tools, Options, Advanced, Updates, tick "Check for updates but let me install them". Viola, you will never have that problem again.

 

Yes, this is how I have it set right now.  And the point is that I can do this.  My objection is that some people here are advocating a forced update, not even giving me the choice!

 

All I am saying is Microsoft should auto-update by default, and allow users to opt out.

 

And I agree with this 300%!!! This is exactly what I have been screaming this whole time.  Again,  my objection is that some people here are advocating a forced update, not even giving me the choice!

[spiderwell]

interesting read, however IE is still rubbish.

[Monkuar]

@.Josh is right, chrome doesn't even have a firebug/tamper data addon as well, which is very disappointing.

 

@,josh, did you ever try to find a setting in the addon it's self to not update automatically maybe? might help reduce stress time when working with a client and like you said when it just "auto updates" I'd be pretty pissed to myself.. hope you get that stuff sorted out.

Edited September 22, 2012 by monkuar

[kicken]

@.Josh is right, chrome doesn't even have a firebug/tamper data addon as well, which is very disappointing.

 

Chrome has it's developer tools, which is basically what firebug is. I personally think chrome's are far easier to use than firebug is. It doesn't have anything like tamper data built-in, but there are other tools out there one could use to do that if necessary, such as Fiddler2. I don't generally find such an extension all that necessary in my work.

[Adam]

You can view the headers, but not 'tamper' with them. Anything like that I would use Charles for though anyway, which can do a lot more.

[Monkuar]

Chrome has it's developer tools, which is basically what firebug is. I personally think chrome's are far easier to use than firebug is. It doesn't have anything like tamper data built-in, but there are other tools out there one could use to do that if necessary, such as Fiddler2. I don't generally find such an extension all that necessary in my work.

 

I agree, the firebug, on firefox seems to much. But I am sure if someone is already familiar with it, they probably love it. Though I do believe firebug as more options and a plethora of more features.

 

But You're right, chrome developer tab/tools is much easier and to the point, in my opinion it gets the job done.

 

I think they should make a tamper data thing with chrome. I use tamper DATA ALOT for protection and securing my script, checking inputs. I hate opening up firefox all the time just to check a specific field... it pisses me off.

 

But I guess it's whatever, both are great browsers nonetheless

[Adam]

I don't think there's anything in Firebug that's not in Chrome's developer tools?

[Monkuar]

I don't think there's anything in Firebug that's not in Chrome's developer tools?

 

Well just from a gooie perspective, Firefox looks way better hands down. here are the pics, pretty self explanitory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Firefox hands down...

Edited September 23, 2012 by Turd

[Adam]

Well that's not actually Firebug. Admittedly though Firefox's default developer tools are getting much better. The 3D layering is pretty good, but I've not found a use for it yet.

 

In terms of GUI, Firefox's tools may look a little better on the eyes, but there's nothing wrong with Chrome's. Chrome's has more functionality though, so it wins IMO.

[Monkuar]

Well that's not actually Firebug. Admittedly though Firefox's default developer tools are getting much better. The 3D layering is pretty good, but I've not found a use for it yet.

 

In terms of GUI, Firefox's tools may look a little better on the eyes, but there's nothing wrong with Chrome's. Chrome's has more functionality though, so it wins IMO.

 

Yes I agree, I was just making a point saying that most people w/o a brain would figure hey "The GUI looks so nice in Firefox! It must be the best!!!". That is like the same argument as "Oh Windows must be the best OS Because it's so easy to navigate around!" kind of argument

 

I believe chrome needs to build a tamper data plugin extremely bad, aw screw this, I've gone way off topic than the original thread, i apologize.

[Christian F.]

Personally I prefer Opera's Firefly, but both Firebug and Chrome's developer tools should be just as good as the others. So what one should use pretty much boils down to personal preference, and what user you prefer to use normally.

All else being equal, the tool you're familiar with is better than the tool you don't know, after all.